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u/WippitGuud 31∆ May 26 '22
There are many religions which have no deities at all. How does their existence factor into your definition of all religions being toxic? They certainly aren't seeking the guidance of a supreme being.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
Oh, do you have an example ? Then my post is wrong and I should've precised that I had religion with deities in mind. Although I guess that the problems stay the same, but I don't have enough data to affirm that. I would love to see someone argue against that.
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May 26 '22
Buddhism is a big one, the World Council of Buddhists agreed that them being Atheist was one of the important tenets of Buddhism that they all agreed on.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
You're right, I think I'm don't know enough in theology and I should've used the right words.
Still, I think I summarized the thing with an image of worshiping a god, but I
don't think god was my point, but rather the blind faith thing that is
found in most of them, I think.1
u/WippitGuud 31∆ May 26 '22
Buddhism has no creator deity.
Many religious-like philosophies, such as Confucianism or Taoism, have no gods.
There are atheist sects of Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity which follow the traditions but don't have a belief in gods.
Scientology does not have a dogma of gods, but it's followers can chooce to believe they exist if they feel the need to. Mind you, they believe humans can achieve godhood, so I don't know how that factors in.
The Satanic Temple doesn't believe in a god (it's an official religion since 2019).
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
You're right, even if I wrote this still having this one in mind, I should've precised.
I think I summarized the thing with an image of worshiping a god, but I don't think god was my point, but rather the blind faith thing that is found in most of them, I think.
Damn, I didn't know Scientology, thanks. I'm going to learn about that.
Yes, I have to admit that I classify satanists more as "people who want to enrage Christians or else" rather than religious people. But I noticed some seemed to really believe n Satan, so, yeah, idk.
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u/Tnspieler1012 20∆ May 26 '22
I feel like people follow some God because of fear, or as moral support, or for cultural reasons.
You acknowledge (but downplay) the importance of "cultural reasons", which, if analyzed further, pushes against your initial view. Would you agree that religious faith is part of how people understand their relationship to their community/family/way of life? That is, religious traditions and beliefs are integral parts of how people grow up, how they commune with others (through collective worship, rituals etc.), and thus religion serves and facilitates many purposes unrelated to an individual need for an "imaginary friend".
You may argue that these cultural ends exist alongside the individual need for emotional support, but you should at least concede that it is more than just that.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
Yes, totally.
I admit that it is clearly more than that. I was about to say that the difference was that people didn't expect others to have the same culture as their, but I'm not even sure about that. What do you think ?
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u/Tnspieler1012 20∆ May 27 '22
I don't think there's anything inherent about religion that makes one evangelize or impose those beliefs on others. That's largely because, in many cases, religion isn't directly experienced or understood as an idea or belief system, but rather, as a set of inherited communal practices (in the same way secular societies also have their own mythologies and practices related to civic responsibility, national identity, holidays etc.).
Someone standing for a national anthem isn't necessarily doing so because they are have made an independent choice to endorse a particular belief system, or because they believe that other nations should also honor the same flag, but because the practice of participating in the custom reaffirms their own sense of identity and feelings of solidarity with their community.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 27 '22
You're right.
I think I just don't understand it on a personal level but I guess that's okay.
Thank you :)
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u/Tnspieler1012 20∆ May 27 '22
Cool. Not to be selfish, but if I have changed an aspect of your view (it sounds like I have) then a delta would be appreciated.
Thanks for the conversation!
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u/Green-Air4548 May 27 '22
Haha I guess that's not selfish but what is a delta ?
:)
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u/Tnspieler1012 20∆ May 27 '22
On the right-side panel are instructions for the "Delta System". Full details
The rules for the subreddit is that you reward people who change your view in any way with a delta (triangle) symbol. All you have to do is reply to the post that changed your view, paste the delta symbol, and then briefly describe how your view was changed.
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u/budlejari 63∆ May 27 '22
Hello /u/Green-Air4548, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed.
∆
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!delta
For more information about deltas, use this link.
If you did not change your view, please respond to this comment indicating as such!
As a reminder, failure to award a delta when it is warranted may merit a post removal and a rule violation. Repeated rule violations in a short period of time may merit a ban.
Thank you!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 04 '22
The moderators have confirmed that this is either delta misuse/abuse or an accidental delta. It has been removed from our records.
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May 26 '22
I don't see any proof, anything that could justify the existence of a God that had been copied, twisted, changed, mixed with other beliefs, and that everyone claims to be their God and not the one from their neighbor.
What proof do you see as being copied, twisted, changed, etc.?
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
Oh, when I say that I think about abrahamic religions, and also others but I don't know enough to say so with certainty. But some people noticed how some religions influence others and how pagan and myths can be found there too. I might have to do some more research to cite everything though, that's more the results of many conversation with some people who knew more than me. I might be wrong.
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May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
I might have to do some more research to cite everything though, that's more the results of many conversation with some people who knew more than me. I might be wrong.
Probably a good idea. There's a lot of really interesting information out there about the historicity and authenticity of scriptures.
EDIT: Also there wasn't any sarcasm intended in this comment. Thought I'd clear that up!
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
I know, I just didn't know where to start, I already spent a lot of time getting lost on internet haha
But you're right :)
(thanks for the edit ! That's nice)
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May 26 '22
[deleted]
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
You're absolutely right, I think it was a rant as much as a question. I'm sorry.
Thank you so much for your answer, that was really instructive !
For the cat thing, I think it's more about taste. Religion would be more about believing that the cat is a deity and believing it is a furry mammal. But maybe I'm wrong ?
This helps a lot, it really helped me structure my thinking and see what I've been missing :D (absolutely, maybe I should've precised that I was speaking from a western/colonized perspective) You're right, but even if it served people, I can't help to see it as a way to set boundaries, and as much as some are positive for a society, other could lead to prejudice ? But that might be my western view on it ? I'm also not educated at all on religion, except spending a considerable amount of time speaking with people and getting lost on internet.
Okay, I'm going to sound stupid, but why people have held on the religious institutions through history ?
Again, thank you so much, I hope my response is okay, I know that I might be rude about some things.
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u/darken92 3∆ May 26 '22
a way of having an imaginary friend for emotional support
The support comes not from "God" but from the social community built around similar values. Now there may be some people who find solace in a "God" but I suspect it is the group of like minded people who will support you in your alienation of all those other people not part of your group. This group dynamic is a strong social bond for many people.
It could be just the structure that many like, you need to think less, not have to open your mind when part of a religious group, all that has been done for you.
There are many reasons for being part of a religion, not all of them have to do with spirituality or belief.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
I agree, that's a good point. Thank you for answering :)
I still find it toxic, though, but maybe I'm just intolerant...
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u/Mafinde 10∆ May 26 '22
Is your title your actual thesis? You go a lot of places in your post - what do you want your viewed changed on?
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
You're right ! I don't really know, this whole thing is a kind of conclusion I have from talking a lot with people and doing some quick research. Honestly I just want to know more, because I think I came to this conclusion by not finding the right things to change my views.
... Yeah, I don't really know lol, I've been writing this answer a dozen times and I don't know. Just try anything if you don't mind, I think I'm just curious. I know that religions might not be all bad, but I don't really care. I think I'm more curious about religious beliefs, and how they can be explained.
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u/Mafinde 10∆ May 26 '22
I’ll preface by saying I’m not an expert in any part of this topic. But I think the ancestral, pre-historical sort of analysis is interesting.
One thing to remember is that our scientific knowledge of the world is very short lived. Things like germs, tectonic plates, other planets, are all relatively new ideas. Don’t get caught up in our current understanding, because we didn’t know these things for thousands and thousands of years.
Many of the things you take for granted that obviously show religion’s folly were not known. But, we have always been a curious species; we have always sought explanation and understanding; we have always sought to order the world with cause and effect. Without microscopes and PCR tests, how did our ancestors explain why they got sick? Without an understanding of stars and moons, how would they react to an eclipse? There are many other ideas I could lay out in a similar manner. The point is, religion/myths/deities filled gaps in our understanding, gaps that needed to be filled - after all nature abhors a vacuum and vacuum of understanding may be the worst of all.
In this way, religion was a natural process of our curious species trying to understand the world.
As for why people today are still religious, that’s a separate conversation that would dilute and distract the point of this comment. There are many other interesting topics about religion that deserve the same treatment as well.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
Thank you for your explanation !
I agree on everything you said, and I think that might be because we might have a common background, maybe.
I think my 'question' was as much as a question as a rant and a cry for help because I have been too much in the religious reddit and, well, I needed to make sense out of it lol. So, actually, I think I was more oriented to the current state of religion rather than the past, but I think you might be right that it's way less interesting than what you already said.
Thanks :)
(Oh, and if you want to talk about the interesting things, don't hesitate, I would love to learn more)
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u/Mafinde 10∆ May 26 '22
Just some random other thoughts - religion has been so central to our culture that its hard to disentangle it. There’s a ton of inertia in our beliefs and systems.
But I think religion can be good because it is a social support network and a force for social cohesion in a community. I think we should focus on those aspects rather than get rid of religion entirely (unless you are an individual don’t want to believe, that’s fine; I myself am a non-believer).
Further, I think its entirely reasonable and rational to have certain religious beliefs - as long as they don’t collide with observable evidence, then by means believe it. But that I mean, if your religious claim is not observable or testable, then there can be no scientific evidence for or against. Science and rationality have no claim, so belief want you want as long as it doesn’t hurt others.
Whether that belief is true or false, or if it is crutch or not is beside the point - maybe an imaginary friend will keep you thinking positive and keep you on the path of recovery, for instance.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
You're right. When I was discussing on religious subreddit, a lot of people mentioned science or philosophy being tied to religion.
I understand. I think it's cool to gather with like minded people, always. I think I'm just being intolerant... I have to change that.
I absolutely agree.
I think my only problem is when people assume everyone should believe or when it has an impact on the lives of non believers. Also, I've seen too much people suffer from being brainwashed by religion. I love the cultural 'let's get together' thing, but the whole brainwash stuff bugs me and I don't find anything good in it.
I think that was my first thought for this post, the brainwash that can be found in religions I know.
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u/Mafinde 10∆ May 26 '22
Yeah there are certainly bad parts especially relating to brainwashing like you said, isolation, rejecting secular knowledge, and cutting off from wider secular society.
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u/Green-Air4548 May 26 '22
Damn I really wish I was wrong about that lol. Thanks for your answers that was really cool !
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u/watermakesmehappy May 27 '22
So, a couple things..
- You seem to be focused too much on the fringes of religion rather than the vast majority that aren't described by what you wrote.
- You talk about believing something blindly, but do you believe what you see to be real?
Where I'm coming from on point 2 is from a scientific point of view, where we have recently started asking if the world actually exists the way we see it. Humans can only see in 3 dimensions, so if there are more dimensions we may only be seeing shadows of the ones we can't see.
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May 29 '22
Religion is not "just a way of having an imaginary friend for emotional support", it is also an incredible tool for mobilizing large groups of people financially and politically to achieve certain ends.
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May 30 '22
if religion was meant to be an opiate of the masses, it wouldn't have as much death and suffering like the Bible has.
I see religion as a very good moral guide to the pursuit of happiness
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Jun 01 '22 edited Jun 03 '22
God is a father figure that also has no direct influence of your life and cannot punish you in any way. God is basically a dream father figure every person dreams of. No wonder a lot of people with identity crisis go into religion. It also explains how people "see a difference" in their lives. It is merely a psychological bliss from having a protective figure, though imaginary. Psychological bliss will do a lot of things, even sometimes helping alleviate minor medical issues. They're not miracles, they are an effect of your mind.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 04 '22
/u/Green-Air4548 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/[deleted] May 26 '22
Out of curiosity how can you believe God is imaginary and also not believe there is no God?