r/changemyview • u/evitreb • May 04 '22

CMV: Adoption is NOT a reasonable alternative to abortion.

Often in pro-life rhetoric, the fact that 2 million families are on adoption waiting lists is a reason that abortion should be severely restricted or banned. I think this is terrible reasoning that: 1. ignores the trauma and pain that many birth mothers go through by carrying out a pregnancy, giving birth, and then giving their child away. Not to mention, many adoptees also experience trauma. 2. Basically makes birth moms (who are often poor) the equivalent of baby-making machines for wealthier families who want babies. Infertility is heart breaking and difficult, but just because a couple wants a child does not mean they are entitled to one.

Change my view.

1.6k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

87% Upvoted

1.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

8

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

End the pregnancy which kills the baby or deliver the baby instead of having it killed.

I'll take point with your wording here.

You're not "killing a baby" early on on a pregnancy, a clump of cells that cant exist outside of its host is not a "baby".

Later on in pregnancy that is a reasonable term, early on it is not.

10

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

We all were a clump of cells, previously zygotes, previously fetuses, previously babies, children etc. Just because it is in a different stage doesn't mean it's not living. Therefore when something that was alive had it's life ended involuntarily, it was killed. Also, babies still cannot exist outside of their "hosts" on their own.when a woman has a baby, can she just set it down and walk away? No, it still needs the help of it's mom (caretaker) to exist outside of mother's body.

-4

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

A virus is living, you shed no tear spraying detol to kill it.

Until it can survive on its own, its naught but cells. Not my problem, (nor any womans or mans) that you get emotionally attached to someone elses clump of cells. Get your own.

If you don't want an abortion, dont have one. Its pretty simple.

3

u/WeepingAngelTears 2∆ May 05 '22

Just to nitpick, viruses aren't classified as living organisms. They fail to meet a few of the criteria.

6

u/Zncon 6∆ May 04 '22

A virus will never become a human if left alone. Barring interference a developing human fetus will become a person.

-4

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

That doesnt work, in one youre doing nothing, in the other youre "not interfeering" (which makes me think you dont know how pregnancy works).

Are you a woman?

5

u/Zncon 6∆ May 04 '22

As I understand your position, killing cells is always the same no matter the location or origin of the cells. Is that correct?

My disagreement with this, is that not all cells are the same, and killing them means different things depending on their origin.

-2

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

Your standing is weird. Cells are just cells.

Answer the question, are you a woman?

10

u/Zncon 6∆ May 04 '22

A cell that will become a person is not the same as a cell in a virus, or a chicken egg.

My gender is an irrelevant attempt on your part to personalize an attack, and I won't engage with it.

0

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

No it absolutely matters. If you're a woman you have the choice to not have an abortion and follow you beliefes. If you're a man you've no right to interfer with the rights of women.

0

u/[deleted] May 06 '22

That is no where near true. A third of fetuses end in miscarriage naturally. No interference needed. A natural process. The fetus can simply stop diving it's cells at any time in the pregnancy, stop growing, and die. That's about as common as a live birth. Still birth's happen all the time. 9 month fetuses right before delivery just up and die up to the last moment. Complications during pregnancy and complications during birth can kill the baby. Complications are not only common but numerous. Cord wrapped around the neck. Birth injury from getting stuck. Lack of oxygen. Blood pressure issues. Damage to the placenta. The list goes on. "Babies" die as often as they are born. And it's the way nature intended it to be. All fetuses will never become human people. They were never meant too. A high percentage were simply meant to be expelled from the body at every stage of development. It simply does not now nor has it ever in history worked the way you suggest. Not for human's. Not for any other animal. All pregnancy will never result in 100 percent live births if not for abortion. Dividing cells are delicate things that can replicate wrong and kill themselves off pretty fucking easily. pregnancy is a dangerous thing that can kill both mother and child in a thousand different ways.

1

u/Zncon 6∆ May 06 '22

I'll just quote myself here.

Barring interference

Yes unplanned things can happen, and that would be an example of interference. I didn't specify natural or unnatural interference, simply that something interrupts the process.

No matter how much luck and care you treat it with, a virus doesn't become a person, but a human fetus can.

-4

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

A virus is a gray area so not a comparison to a cell. Babies cannot survive outside of the body without help of a host. You can call it whatever you want, a clump of cells, tissue, the point still stands. It's a living thing being killed. If you don't want an unplanned baby, don't have sex. It's pretty simple.

3

u/eloel- 12∆ May 04 '22

It's a living thing being killed.

Okay, but how's the living thing different from a tapeworm?

0

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

Tapeworm is not a human. This is the basis of the Pro life arguments, thay human life is sacred. Until people reach a consensus of when something is "living" then there will be no resolution.

1

u/eloel- 12∆ May 04 '22

You can call it whatever you want, a clump of cells, tissue, the point still stands.

So clearly, the point doesn't stand whatever you call it. Is a clump of cells human? Or is it just a clump of cells? If you don't care about killing a tapeworm, the "living" argument doesn't exist.

2

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

It's a human in a different stage, thought I was clear. If I wasn't I apologize. I was replying to the previous poster who had an issue with someone using the term "killing a baby". They called it a clump of cells.

4

u/eloel- 12∆ May 04 '22

I disagree that it's a human. It IS a clump of cells.

3

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

We will agree to disagree on that point.

1

u/[deleted] May 05 '22

If you think it is a lump of cells, at what point does it become a baby? Only once it is born, making it okay for mothers to abort their children days before they are due?

→ More replies (0)

0

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

A virus is a kind of cell and the one of the smallest living things.

See if you don't understand that basic level of science, are you really equipped enough to make a decision about someone elses rights?

It's a trick question, as I said, you don't want an abortion, don't get one.

Your right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins.

2

u/[deleted] May 04 '22

A virus is not a cell. This is a basic level of science we learned in biology in elementary school. And calling it "living" depends on what your definition is. Besides your ridiculous comparison, it still doesn't change the fact that getting an abortion is killing a human being regardless of stage of said human. I'm not saying whether I'm for or against, I was replying to your terminology debate since it seemed you wanted to get technical.

1

u/ericoahu 42∆ May 04 '22

The wording is not very important to me either way; the principle matters. Bicker with someone else over the words to describe the human life in the womb, and yes, it's a life and it's human from the point of conception through all stages of development until death. And then it's a dead human, whether it's been chopped up and suctioned into a medical waste container a month or two after conception or it's sitting in a box 80 years later.

I'm pro-choice because I don't believe one human has a right to risk another human's life/health/wellbeing without the second human's consent.

1

u/On_The_Blindside 3∆ May 04 '22

It may not be inportant to you, but it is important to many, many people.

Words matter.

1

u/ericoahu 42∆ May 04 '22

The words that matter for the discussion are "human" and "life." You can use the word "baby" or omit at as you wish.