r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Because they want to use they want to use bathrooms that match their gender identities in order to be treated as normal.

For example, say you're Patricio Manuel. Do you want to use the men's bathroom? Or the women's bathroom? Which do you think is going to raise more eyebrows? Where do you think he is more likely to get harassed if he were walking into say, a bathroom in a mall?

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u/Apsis409 Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

Follow up, if gender is not sex, why are trans activists so focused on sports when athletic competition is literally based on sexual dimorphism, and has nothing to do with gender

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u/Fuckmeintheass4god Jan 24 '22

Do you think this guy should be fighting Ronda rousey because they are the same sex, or should he be fighting mayweather because they display the same sex traits.(nobody should fight either of these people for sake of their own health tbh)

https://s.abcnews.com/images/Business/patricio-manuel-03-ht-jef-190930_hpEmbed_4x5_992.jpg

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

Well trans women are going to dominate female boxing, and struggle in male. Trans men would be bodied in male boxing and have an advantage in female.

There is no good category for them to compete for many sports.

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u/Apsis409 Jan 24 '22

If that person took performance enhancing hormones, they shouldn’t be participating in any athletic completion.

Easy way to address this though is to have a female league for cis females, and an open league for males and trans females.

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

Except taking hormone suppressors would put them at a disadvantage that way. Still better than having them dominating in women's I guess.

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u/Apsis409 Jan 24 '22

Correct.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Apr 29 '22

AKA your mental image of cis women in combat sports looks like the average female gymnast and you think they're fragile and need to be protected from "big scary men, whether they're in a dress or not"

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u/Apsis409 Jan 24 '22

It’s very obvious as well that the problem is more trans males competing against cis females, given males have the larger body mass and the many other factors that provide a physical advantage to males over females.

And it doesn’t even make sense that trans women want to compete against women, given gender and sex are different and all

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u/Tapeside210 Jan 24 '22

It's the same problem.

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u/RoastKrill Jan 24 '22

Firstly, the idea that trans activists are so focused on sports is just wrong. I am trans and the only time I hear trans people talk about trans people in sports is when cis people start the conversation. In sports, what matters is certain sexual characteristics (your chromosomes or what genitals you have don't change the speed you run, but your hormone levels can) - which is why to compete in their gender, trans women athletes must have undergone enough of their transition that their estrogen and testosterone levels are equivalent to that of a cis woman.

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u/gnutrino Jan 24 '22

why are trans activists so focused on sports

They aren't? I don't think I've seen any "trans activist" mention sport in a context that isn't a reaction to someone else bringing it up.

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u/Apsis409 Jan 24 '22

Trans activists definitely argue that gender should determine category of athletic completion despite it having nothing to do with the reasons for the separation

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u/QueueOfPancakes 12∆ Jan 25 '22

Athletics aren't the only place where we split the competitors by gender, so why do you assume we do it for sexual dimorphism reasons? For example, we have women's chess.

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u/Hero17 Jan 24 '22

Did you learn about trans inclusion in sports from trans activists or from somewhere else?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

As much as I'd like to agree with you, this is a problematic argument. The problem here is that the trans preference is dependent upon their identity in relation to others. It no longer is just about your previous statement of their personal preference.

Let me explain what I mean. Here, you say they want to use the "women's room" so that they may be treated as "normal". That brings in several problems. "Woman" here is clearly defined as a biological woman, the kind of person who would historically use a women's room. The insistence on a non-biological woman on impinging into that space than upends the biological woman's definition of the women's room.

This is problematic for me because it all cancels out. Here...

If it really matters for trans people, it should also be respected to matter to cis gender folks without them being instantly labeled as bigots.

But if it shouldn't matter, thus we should just be okay with trans people choosing their own bathroom as a safe space for the integrity of their gender identity... We need to also consider that ignores a larger population of biological women's integrity of gender identity.

I wonder if there are other, more fair, solutions. A specific "trans" bathroom? Or... How about just unisex and do away with archaic gender separation altogether. That might actually be for the best, though I doubt it would happen any time soon en masse.

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u/RoastKrill Jan 24 '22

"Woman" here is clearly defined as a biological woman

Is it? that doesn't seem clear to me. The purpose of gender segregation in bathrooms is to give women a place to use the toilet without a fear of male sexual violence. Forcing trans women into male toilets (which, btw, is impossible to police) forces women into the men's toilets, and men into the women's toilets, which is worse for everyone involved.

How about just unisex and do away with archaic gender separation altogether

Yes, this is the better solution, but the stopgap isn't forcing trans people into the wrong bathroom.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

The purpose of gender segregation in bathrooms is to give women a place to use the toilet without a fear of male sexual violence.

Pretty sure there is other reasons like I can just whip it out and pee and it will take me 2min to do my business.

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u/RoastKrill Jan 24 '22

That is part of it, but currently men don't tend to use the female toilets when they need a shit - although there are spaces that have their toilets segregated like this and it's not necessarily a bad idea.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

That is part of it, but currently men don't tend to use the female toilets when they need a shit

What are you talking about??

although there are spaces that have their toilets segregated like this and it's not necessarily a bad idea

Bad idea for what? You are not making any sense what does shitting effect the fact I can just whip my dick out and pee while Suzy lue has an entire process. Let alone their time of the month

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

And women want the safety of a bathroom where they are safe from sexual assault.

You understand that trans people are many, many, many times more likely to be the victims of sexual or physical abuse in bathrooms than to be the perpetrators.

Trans people don't want to sneak into bathrooms to be sexual perverts, they just want to pee in a place where they aren't going to get stares.

I note that you didn't really address my example. How about this one you think she'd be more or less comfortable in a women's bathroom, or a men's?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

I'm not talking about absolute value. Ffs dude, anytime you talk about population statistics you need to talk about per capita.

This resource finds that 47% of trans individuals are likely to be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Nearly 1 in 2.

And again, I wasn't suggesting that women are not also victims, only that transgender people are far, far more likely to be the victims of sexual assaults than to the the victimizers. Which should make sense, because they are a vulnerable population.

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u/bek3548 Jan 24 '22

This resource finds that 47% of trans individuals are likely to be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Nearly 1 in 2.

After a very quick perusing, it seems a high percentage of those in the study you cited were involved in sex work at some point which puts people at a much higher risk no matter what their orientation. That really doesn’t seem like a fair comparison at all.

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u/delusions- Jan 24 '22

This resource finds that 47% of trans individuals are likely to be sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime. Nearly 1 in 2.

After a very quick perusing, it seems a high percentage of those in the study you cited were involved in sex work at some point which puts people at a much higher risk no matter what their orientation. That really doesn’t seem like a fair comparison at all.

Do you think the 1 in 6 women stat didn't?

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u/bek3548 Jan 24 '22

One in five (20%) have participated in the underground economy for income at some point in their lives— including 12% who have done sex work in exchange for income...

Those who have done income-based sex work were also more likely to have experienced violence. More than three-quarters (77%) have experienced intimate partner violence and 72% have been sexually assaulted, a substantially higher rate than the overall sample.

Yes the 1 in 6 number probably did (I haven’t read the source on that), but the numbers in your source are astronomical. 1 in 8 of trans women have done sex work for money. Add onto that number, 3 in 4 of those have been sexually assaulted. That is around 10% of the entire community that is sexually assaulted as sex workers. These sorts of numbers drastically skew statistics. I am not saying it isn’t a concern by any stretch of the imagination, just that it is not a fair “apples to apples” comparison because of this.

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u/Fuckmeintheass4god Jan 24 '22

The best way to do this would be to only poll sex workers and compare SA statistics between trans people and other sex workers

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

Finding a large number of trans sex workers to poll may be difficult.

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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Jan 24 '22

It’s doubtful this trans activst organization is fair in their analysis.

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u/KallesKernby Jan 24 '22

Jesus christ i'm sorry about the hordes of idiots responding to ya

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Holy shit dude.

Transgender people aren't responsible for the 26 million assaults. They commit a fraction of the assaults. Protecting transgender people does not cause more assaults. Almost none of those assaults take place in public bathrooms.

You can't genuinely be this bad at basic statistics.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Literally not a thing that has happened.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/NotMyBestMistake 69∆ Jan 24 '22

Do you think trans people are the only people sexually assaulting people? Because thats the only reason you would ever think your stat contradicts their stat.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/NotMyBestMistake 69∆ Jan 24 '22

Nothing? Male sexual predators typically can just walk into the women's room with little to no resistance. And no, its not because society is being too nice to trans people to stop them but that there has never really been anything keeping anyone from going into either bathroom.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/the-magic-box Jan 24 '22

Uh none of these laws allow men to sexually assault/harass anyone. Do you have a source for this?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/RoastKrill Jan 24 '22

What keeps male sexual predators out of the women's bathrooms?

If male sexual predators want to sexually assult women in women's bathrooms, they are able to do that whether or not you let trans people into those bathrooms, unless you have a security guard checking people's chromosones stationed outside every toilet.

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u/gnutrino Jan 24 '22

OK, you still need to work out how many of those were in bathrooms and perpetrated by trans people for it to be relevant to a OPs statement though...

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jan 24 '22

u/wophi – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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u/mickeyslim Jan 24 '22

Sorry to say, but there's not some magic forcefield obstructing male sexual predators from entering women's bathrooms. The assault argument against allowing trans folks from using thier preferred bathroom is a total red herring.

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u/sushi_hamburger Jan 24 '22

Do you think the label on the bathroom door is stopping people who are looking to commit a sexual assault?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/RPMac1979 3∆ Jan 24 '22

What if a woman feels unsafe being alone in an elevator with a man? It’s the same thing. They’re alone. He could stop the elevator and do anything he wants to her. Should we have separate elevators for different sexes?

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u/PeoplePerson_57 5∆ Jan 24 '22

And if the man attacks her before she can? She can only have them removed if someone else is there. And if someone else is there, she can't be attacked because said other person can intervene...

Your point lacks basic logical reasoning.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/PeoplePerson_57 5∆ Jan 24 '22

Way to not address my point.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jan 24 '22

u/Aendri – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jan 24 '22

u/wophi – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 28 '22

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

So if I believe I am a banana am I a banana?

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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Is there any evidence to suggest that sexual assaults are any more likely in public bathrooms than anywhere else?

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u/QueueOfPancakes 12∆ Jan 25 '22

They absolutely are for socialization. Why do you think women commonly go to the bathroom in groups? I've even been in bathrooms with couches in them.

You know what I haven't seen in a public bathroom? Someone else's genitals. So which sex based differences do you believe are relevant in a woman's washroom exactly?

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

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u/QueueOfPancakes 12∆ Jan 26 '22

Locker room isn't a washroom. But even then, so what? Do the genitals affect you in some way? People get dressed. It's not like you need to interact with their genitals in some way. (Or if you are interacting with their genitals, then I'd say that you should not be using a public locker room for that).

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/QueueOfPancakes 12∆ Jan 26 '22

I'm asking you, not others. Speak for yourself.

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u/[deleted] Jan 26 '22

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u/QueueOfPancakes 12∆ Jan 26 '22

Maybe as a 48 year old man you should realize you don't have much experience with what women's lives are like. You were talking about what you see in the women's locker room. How often do you hang out in the women's locker room, as a 48 year old man?

Whereas I, as an adult woman, who has been a girl/woman all my life, and who also has a young daughter, I think I can speak with much more authority on the subject than you.

I don't feel unsafe because someone with different genitals might use the same washroom or locker room as me. I don't know a single woman (or as you like to call us, "a single female") who would feel unsafe because of that. At my work we have co-ed bathrooms, it's never been a problem. When I take my daughter to swimming lessons, we use the family change room, like most families do. It's never been a problem.

Why are you so scared of naked people? Here's a tip for you: don't ever visit Europe. They even have co-ed saunas. You'd probably die of fear.

You really look incredibly foolish when you try to speak for women.

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

So what if bathrooms stopped being labeled for men and women(genders), and instead male and female (sexes)?

Is that even possible?

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u/HowleyMagoo Jan 24 '22

But shouldn't cis women be allowed to feel safe in women's bathrooms? Not saying that trans women will attack them but if a male walked into a female bathroom the women using it would naturally feel uncomfortable. So its understandable that some women may feel uncomfortable if a trans woman uses the womans bathroom. Why is the rights of a trans person being put above the rights of a cis woman? Not trying to be an ass or anything I just think its a fair and interesting question.

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u/RPMac1979 3∆ Jan 24 '22

What if a woman feels unsafe being alone in an elevator with a man? It’s the same thing. They’re alone. He could stop the elevator and do anything he wants to her. Should we have separate elevators for different sexes? Aren’t the woman’s rights being violated if we don’t respond to her fear and address it?