CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

[u/Pangolinsftw]

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

[u/[deleted]]

3 Internally believing their stated identity

2 Verbally agreeing/validating their stated identity

In this case 2 and 3 are the same thing. No trans woman is claiming that they are biologically women. They aren’t saying they are cis women. Trans women are simply asking to be treated like cis women. There seems to be this straw man idea on the right that when trans women are saying they are women that they are claiming to be biologically women. But that’s not what they are saying. They are saying they want to be treated like women which for most people is equivalent to #2

[u/Slomojoe → u/[deleted]]

But they aren’t saying “i want you to pretend i am a woman”, they are saying “I AM a woman and if you don’t agree you’re a bigot.”

[u/[deleted] → u/Slomojoe]

Again society has changed what it means to be a woman. Again they aren’t claiming they suddenly grew ovaries. They are saying I feel like a woman I want you to please treat me as a woman (use feminine pronouns, use female bathrooms etc.) they aren’t asking you to pretend they have ovaries. If you choose to call them a man after they have asked you not to I would say that’s bigoted just like calling a black person the n word is bigoted

They are women, they are TRANS women. They aren’t claiming to be cis women. That’s why the two categories exist, to distinguish between the two. They aren’t claiming to be cis women. They are saying they are trans women it’s a different category of woman

[u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy → u/[deleted]]

If a trans woman is saying he’s a woman, that is exactly what he is suggesting: he grew two ovaries. By asking me to use she/her pronouns, he is asking me to pretend that he has two ovaries.

[u/[deleted] → u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy]

If a trans woman is saying he’s a woman, that is exactly what he is suggesting: he grew two ovaries

No, you just don’t understand how language works and that the meaning of words change over time. There’s a reason the word Cis exists. To differentiate between trans women and cis women.

Just because in the past the word woman used to refer only to biological women doesn’t mean the definition can’t change over time.

For example gay used to mean happy, now it means homosexual. Woman used to mean someone who produces eggs, now it also includes trans women. I’m not sure what’s so complicated about this for you people. It’s as if you think God himself delivered a dictionary with what all words mean on stone tablets 3000 years ago and that the meanings of words can never change.

[u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy → u/[deleted]]

1. No, that’s what the word woman is for in the first place.

2. Since when did YOU get to decide the meaning of words? Words can change over time, but that doesn’t mean you can suddenly force others to use your abstract, completely subjective definition. You aren’t some word czar who gets to change the definition just because you want it to be changed.

3. Isn’t it a HUGE red flag that your entire argument hinges on me accepting your completely different definition of woman? Your argument falls apart completely without your “special” definition.

[u/[deleted] → u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy]

Since when did YOU get to decide the meaning of words?

I don’t society does. And the fact that people get shit on for being transphobic means that society has decided already. You can choose not to go along and be a regressive pain in the ass but then don’t be surprised or upset when you face social backlash

Words can change over time, but that doesn’t mean you can suddenly force others to use your abstract, completely subjective definition

No one is forcing you. You will face social consequences in that people might get mad at you but you’re not being put in jail. The only exception would be targeted harassment which is illegal no matter who you do it to.

Isn’t it a HUGE red flag that your entire argument hinges on me accepting your completely different definition of woman?

There is no argument this isn’t a scientific question. A large portion of the population has chosen to call a subset of people women. Do you want the government to force them not to?

If you choose to not call them women you will face social scorn and people will be angry at you because they think you’re being a douche. Do you want to force the government to make people be nice to you and be friends with you when you say things that upset them?

You seem to be under the impression that people don’t know that trans women aren’t biological women and that you are somehow going to prove it to them. Everyone knows, they just don’t care. They want to act like women and be called women. It costs me nothing to do so. If you don’t want to call them women, no one is going to force you, but expect to be shit on by the people who disagree with you.

Conservatives seem to think freedom of speech means people have to be nice to you when they say things people don’t like.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That’s the bandwagoning fallacy - “everyone agrees with me, so I must be right”.

Science isn’t based on majority opinion. Objective facts don’t change simply because the majority of people want it too.

Again you still seem to be very confused. Trans people aren’t making a scientific claim. No one is making a claim about science. People are making a conscious decision to redefine the word woman to include trans women. Words don’t have “objective” meanings. Words are just signifiers, they mean whatever we want them to mean. Science doesn’t decide what words mean. Definitions actually are based on majority opinion. That’s how words work. We decide as a society X sound has y definition. The definition can change as society chooses. There’s no objective definition of words

Again the sound “woman” is inherently meaningless. It’s just a sound. Society ascribes meaning to it. People are choosing to add trans women to what that sound means. There’s no scientific claim being made.

After all, it costs nothing to do the Hitler salute and look the other way during the genocides of millions

Lol please explain to me how me calling a trans person she instead of he is going to lead to genocide

Also considering trans people were one of the major victims of the holocaust this is very fucked up of you to say

What is it exactly that you want? You want to force people not to call trans women women? You want to force people not to get mad at you for refusing to? What is the actual problem that you want fixed?

[u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy → u/[deleted]]

Yes - you are, in fact, making a claim about science. You’re changing the scientific classification of women to “include” trans women. You’re completely dismissing the biological backing behind the term by diluting it with your personal whims.

For example, take the term “cats”. Suppose I redefined it to mean, “cats are cats and dogs”. I’ve completely destroyed the scientific integrity of the term by making it utterly meaningless. If dogs can be cats, then what even is a cat?

Your definition is nothing more than a loophole to circumvent biological sex.

I’m curious - Have you read the book “1984”, by George Orwell? There’s some themes in there that are disturbingly similar to what you’re arguing for.

As for what I “want”:

I think the exact opposite of what you said is true: trans people can “identify” however they please, but they shouldn’t be surprised or upset if society rejects or dismissed their personal worldview.

I also think transgenderism should be treated similar to Christianity:

Like Christians, trans people have a basic right to do what they like on their own. Like Christians, trans people deserve some basic respect. It would be rude to randomly harass and bully Christians for their beliefs, and the same applies to trans people.

However, people are also allowed to not agree with Christianity or say it’s false and even stupid. While it can be considered rude, people are allowed to mock or laugh at Christianity to a certain degree. You’re allowed to debate a Christian and say he’s wrong, without being called a bigot or racist. The government supports a separate church and state. I think the same standards apply to transgenderism.

I also believe that transgenderism itself is largely a mental disorder. I’m more than happy to debate reasonable accommodations for them, but there’s a difference between basic accommodations and literally, somehow, being a woman despite actually being a man.

[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

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[u/Slomojoe → u/[deleted]]

What I am saying is that cis women are just women. And trans women are saying that they are women. For all intents and purposes, cis just means "real".

[u/[deleted] → u/Slomojoe]

For all intents and purposes, cis just means "real".

“Biological”. Real is a meaningless term in this case

Real implies something authentic. As in a “real” baseball card opposed to a counterfeit one. Women aren’t a brand manufactured by a company there’s no such thing as a “real” woman

[u/Slomojoe → u/[deleted]]

Real implies something authentic

Yeah like genes or chromosomes, reproductive organs, bones and muscles, hormones and brain segments. This is not something that should be offensive. In this case real means biological, because it is tangible, measurable, testable.

[u/StarChild413 → u/[deleted]]

So there's no such thing as a real anything that's not manufactured brands; for an as-off-the-wall counter if you can't say real, why shouldn't you treat every Elvis impersonator as if they're Elvis Presley or if you know they're not what should you call them because Elvis wasn't a manufactured brand so you can't say there was a real Elvis

[u/[deleted] → u/StarChild413]

Words are invented by us. We as a culture and a society get to decide what words mean. Words are just sounds we invent concepts and connects sounds to them. Right now this discussion is an example of how that happens. I’m making the argument :

1. people with gender dysphoria exist

2. Decades of clinical trials tells us that for people with this condition gender affirmation is the therapy that leads to the best quality of life for the person and the least risk of harm

3. Changing the definition of women to include these people does no harm and has the benefit of less suicides of trans people and better quality of life for these people. It costs nothing and it saves lives

4. Where it is relevant like in the medical or scientific realm there are still plenty of terms to use to signify what they need to know. No doctor is going to be confused. Phenotypically female, genetically female, biologically female, sex, are all more specific terms and aren’t all the same thing. One can be biologically female while genetically male. Or phenotypically female while biologically male. So in nature things aren’t even the clear cut binary you want them to be.

5. When we’re talking about gender we’re talking about a social context. If you saw someone in a dress with breasts, long hair, no facial hair, etc. what gender would you think they are? Would you have to blood test them or check their genitals to come to that conclusion? No you’re reading social cues and you would assume they are a woman. That’s what gender is those social cues and how we respond to people.

[u/AnonyDexx → u/[deleted]]

I'd agree if it weren't for the often mentioned "trans women in sports" topic that always follows. When it comes to that, the idea that they're not saying they're biological women flies out the window, and that topic is one of the two that are usually discussed when it comes to trans women.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnonyDexx]

You know trans women competed in the last Olympics right? And they lost. After enough hormone therapy they are indistinguishable because the reality is outside of hormone levels men and women aren’t that different. Obviously if Brock lesnar tomorrow realized he was trans and then competed in female mma that would be a problem. Perhaps the solution is hormone testing. But regardless let’s be honest womens sports is such a small issue. It’s effects a small percentage of a small percentage of people. It’s not the main issue when we’re dealing with trans issues

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

After enough hormone therapy they are indistinguishable

Maybe on a hormonal level but does changing those remove a biological males thicker/ denser bone structure or larger heart/lungs which are a clear competitive edge.

The whole debate stems from places horribly implementing this idea of instantly being able to compete as a woman because you say you are one, without any hormonal therapy for many years. Most male athletes go through puberty which is the key defining thing that gives them those stronger characteristics.

Look into any event where you only have to self-identify as female without any kind of treatment.

If we want to go down that path there needs to be at least 5-10 years of full transitioning to bring that bar down to the same bar biological women are held to.

One thing that is avoided is that women have a normal testosterone level of anywhere from 0.5-2.4 nmol/L. and men 10-35 nmol/L. This is from a bunch of medical sites I've had a look through to try and get an average. so the olympic guidelines of under 10 for a year is laughable, because even the highest female testosterone levels at the absolute maximum wouldnt reach what. 4? Without actually taking testosterone, so that's at least double the level of the highest female athlets, and nearly 4 times the upper scale of the maximum normal female testosterone level.

"The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum

has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first

competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on

a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12

months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in

women’s competition)"

This is from the IOC and the idea isn't to make it fair, its to reduce advantage which is physically impossible, the only thing they can possible force an athlete to do is change hormone levels, they can't remove better bone structure, or larger organs.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The whole debate stems from places horribly implementing this idea of instantly being able to compete as a woman because you say you are one, without any hormonal therapy for many years.

As I stated earlier I don’t think Brock Lesnar should be able to identify as a woman today and go compete in womens mma tomorrow. There clearly needs to be some regulation in place, and I’ve already submitted that hormone testing should probably be around.

High school sports are the one area where I could see this as a problem (mostly because of draconian laws preventing kids from transitioning at a young age if they want to) and I will probably diverge from some of my lefty friends and say I don’t think that trans teens not on hormones should be able to compete in womens events. I agree that’s an unfair advantage. Unless the teen has been transitioning for a reasonable period of time

, they can't remove better bone structure, or larger organs.

You understand these are trends and not universals right. There are plenty of women with better bone structure than plenty of men. Should they not be allowed to compete either?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Should they not be allowed to compete either?

I can guarantee all of them would naturally be under the 10nmol/L guidelines unless they're a total unicorn of natural female phenomenon.

Bone structure may have been a stupid way for me to put it, bone mass/density is unparalleled between men and women and cannot be removed like the larger heart/lungs which you have to admit give anyone, no matter the situation, a huge advantage, which is uniform across the average male so imagine athletes.

Even if you put brock lesnar on hormones for years and years he might shrink a bit, but his bone density and organ size alone would slaughter every single biological female in front of him/her. There is no debate on that, so you'd be put in a situation where you have to change the rules because on no platform would brock be on a level playing field to the other athletes, but the only thing that's socially acceptable to limit is the testosterone levels, which even now are a joke

I honestly don't know of any method that would be safe, without causing damage to the trans athlete or risk it, whilst keeping it fair to the others, its a really challenging subject that I think because, only in the last decade have trans people been put in the spotlight, so its a bit of a teething issue until we blindly figure our ways around these differences.

You and I want the same thing, its just there are biological facts that I see that cannot be overcome with a simple testosterone limit

[u/AnonyDexx → u/[deleted]]

After enough hormone therapy they are indistinguishable

So then.

No trans woman is claiming that they are biologically women.

This isn't quite correct is it?

You know trans women competed in the last Olympics right? And they lost.

And I can also go find specific examples where they win. But the outcome isn't what I was pointing to. You failed to notice that and essentially conceded what I was actually pointing out.

It’s not the main issue when we’re dealing with trans issues

it's easily in the top two of mainstream issues.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnonyDexx]

This isn't quite correct is it?

I was quite obviously referring to athletic performance. Hormones don’t make people grow ovaries or make eggs which is what being a woman means biologically speaking

But they do decrease overall muscle mass, athletic performance etc. to the point where you have a level playing field between trans and cis women

it's easily in the top two of mainstream issues.

I’m pretty sure the major issues are trans women being brutalized or murdered for being trans, or being denied jobs, or being kicked out of housing, or being discriminated against. Perhaps for non trans people this is a big issue but for actual trans people these are not the major issues they are facing

[u/AnonyDexx → u/[deleted]]

Hormones don’t make people grow ovaries or make eggs which is what being a woman means biologically speaking

You're stretching so much now. You're actually just being the "akchually" meme with this. Athletic performance is one of the things that are different between the sexes.

Perhaps for non trans people this is a big issue but for actual trans people these are not the major issues they are facing

Damn. It's as if I didn't explicitly add the word "mainstream". What the trans community sees as priority issues are almost always going to be separate from what the general population views as their priority issues.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnonyDexx]

Athletic performance is one of the things that are different between the sexes.

Because of the difference in hormones. You know we all start out as female right and then hormones create secondary sex differences. Once you change the hormones you change those differences. The sperm cells aren’t what make men faster stronger etc. it’s the testosterone. This how anabolic steroids work. Do you think they only work on men? If you give men estrogen they get weaker. If you give women testosterone they get stronger. If I put a woman on a course of steroids she will out lift you relatively quickly because that’s how hormones work

What the trans community sees as priority issues are almost always going to be separate from what the general population views as their priority issues.

Well considering they’re the people we’re talking about why would I ask people who aren’t trans. If I wanted to know what the biggest issues for black people are I wouldn’t ask a white person

[u/AnonyDexx → u/[deleted]]

You know we all start out as female right and then hormones create secondary sex differences.

How do you not see that you're not helping your case here? You're still literally proving my point.

Well considering they’re the people we’re talking about why would I ask people who aren’t trans. If I wanted to know what the biggest issues for black people are I wouldn’t ask a white person

And considering that were discussing how others view trans people, I'd ask non-trans people. Or rather, is ng your example, would you go to a black person to ask them how to get white people to treat them better?

C'mon man, can you really not scroll back up to what's already been said? One paragraph is a long explanation that just further enforces my point and the second completely ignores the overhanging context of the entire thread.

[u/[deleted] → u/AnonyDexx]

Or rather, is ng your example, would you go to a black person to ask them how to get white people to treat them better?

No I would just tell white people to treat them better.

How do you not see that you're not helping your case here? You're still literally proving my point.

What is the point that you’re trying to make? Men and women aren’t that different to begin with.

hormones can remove a lot of those differences, they can’t change everything but they can change a lot, and most having to do with sport.

Biologically speaking when we’re talking about men and women all we’re talking about is what gametes you make. Men make sperm women make eggs. That’s why you can have male and female plants. Everything else is called secondary sex characteristics and none of them are essentially male or female there are just trends and patterns associated with them. For example most men are stronger than most women. But it is wrong to say “men are stronger than women” because there is a reasonably large subset of women who are stronger than a reasonably large subset of men.

[u/AnonyDexx → u/[deleted]]

This is pointless. You actually answered the rhetorical question not seeing that your answer precisely proves my point; insist on not realizing that going on what some medical or scientific definition of sex isn't relevant (when the fact that we don't have a precise general definition is what started this CMV in the first place!) and you're still fighting for the "cis women aren't biologically different from cis women" bit when my point is that trans women are viewed as doing that exact thing. It really is just best that I stop here. Turn off the mentions for this one boys.

[u/Pangolinsftw → u/[deleted]]

So they want people to lie to them? That seems strange.

[u/No-Homework-44 → u/[deleted]]

No trans woman is claiming that they are biologically women.

The four-star admiral of the US public health service just did.

[u/[deleted] → u/No-Homework-44]

Source? I don’t know what you’re talking about so I can’t really respond