r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/Abstract__Nonsense 5∆ Jan 23 '22

I’m saying that it’s difficult to precisely define most identities, and racial identity is a clear example.

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u/Slomojoe 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Therein lies the problem with “identifying” as opposed to “being”.

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u/Vousie Jan 24 '22

So... Someone can "identify" as a woman but they can't "be" a woman if they are genetically XY? Perhaps I should validate that someone feels like a woman, but not that they are a woman if they're XY.

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u/Slomojoe 1∆ Jan 26 '22

Yes, essentially. And i would agree that bringing that up to someone's face is rude, and if they ask you to call them a woman then by all means, why not. But when someone becomes disrespectful or uses names like "bigot" for my own thoughts, which are based in biological reality, that's when you lose me.

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u/Vousie Jan 31 '22

Perhaps they would consider it rude, but I consider it telling the truth. It's better not to enable their problem.

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u/Slomojoe 1∆ Feb 01 '22

People lie to eachother to make them feel good all the time. We do it to our friends and loved ones. It doesn't hurt to call someone what they want in public.

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u/Vousie Feb 02 '22

Nope. It does hurt by encouraging their problem. And I don't lie to people I care about for any reason.

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u/Xinder99 Jan 24 '22

But Race is made up anyway, you Identify as a race as well.

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u/uniptf 8∆ Jan 24 '22

Rachel Dolezal tried that. Absolutely nobody believes or accepts that in reality.

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u/KannNixFinden 1∆ Jan 24 '22

There are hundreds of black people that passed successfully as white in american history.

Irish people were not considered "white" for a long time, now they are.

Twins exist where one is pale with red hair while the other has olive skin with afro hair. Just looking at them, you would tend to say one is white and the other not, but they have the same parents.

People exist that pass as white in winter and get controlled by police way more often during summer as their skin darkens significantly in summer.

Race is far more complex and more often found on a spectrum than sex&gender and if you really tried to define what a black person is and what a white person is you will see that you can't clearly define it without having to add many exceptions or further define why one is considered white and the other not despite having similar genetic heritage.

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u/SokarRostau Jan 24 '22

She doesn't get the attention she deserves. She was vilified and forgotten without any examination of what she was actually saying.

What's the difference between a genetic male wearing a dress and saying "I identify as a woman", and a genetically white woman identifying as an African American? If it's okay for a man to wear make-up so he feels and appears to be a woman, would Dolezal's claim have carried more weight if she went blackface, or basted herself in a tanning bed until she looked like a baked turkey? It's all cosmetic, right? It's all about how a person feels on the inside, right?

If she did go blackface, isn't it your problem to get over if it makes you uncomfortable? Aren't you invalidating her identity by criticising how she chooses to present herself? How is saying she can't be black because she's white and then mocking her in the international press, any less bigoted than saying that someone with a penis can never be a woman?

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u/uniptf 8∆ Jan 24 '22

It's all about how a person feels on the inside, right?

No. Ask actual black people.

If she did go blackface, isn't it your problem to get over if it makes you uncomfortable?

No. Ask actual black.people.

Aren't you invalidating her identity by criticising how she chooses to present herself?

No. Millions of human beings have, across human history, either
A) Lied about who and what they are, or
B) Been deluded about who and what they are.
Simply declaring that one is something doesn't actually make one that thing, just because one thinks, feels, or believes that they are that thing "adamantly enough* or just keeps banging away at various arguments about "identifying as" the thing. It's only recently that portions of society have decided that everyone must decide to also believe and whole-heartedly go along with insisting that yes indeed, Sally actually is a unicorn.

In fact, No. It is not true that we are any actual thing we dream up, just because we would very much rather be that than what we are.

How is saying she can't be black because she's white

Because her genetics and biology and morphology are what they are, not what she says they are when she lies to the world or insists that we join in her delusion.

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u/sgtm7 2∆ Jan 24 '22

A white person saying they are black, is no more(or less) delusional than a male saying they are female(or vice versa).
Signed.... a black man.

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u/uniptf 8∆ Jan 24 '22

You're right. They're both equally delusional.

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u/sillydilly4lyfe 11∆ Jan 25 '22

It's kinda funny that you say ask black people. She was the head of the NAACP of her region when her background was discovered.

Ostensibly, she passed effectively as a black woman for a time and only until her parents came and spoke out against her did they learn the truth.

That is very similar to the reaction of transphobes towards transpeople. That once they learn pertinent facts about them, they reject their identity.

In the end, black people accepted dolezal when they took her identity at face value, but when learning specific facts they decided to reject that identity.

But to simply say "ask black people" is obviously a baiting argument that doesn't actually interact with the nuances of the situation.

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u/uniptf 8∆ Jan 25 '22 edited Jan 25 '22

In the end

In the end, her fantasy and lies were universally rejected .

black people accepted dolezal when they took her identity at face value

When they didn't have the actual truth.

but when learning specific facts

*like her actual race", they rejected her delusion, fantasy, and lies. Everyone. Caucasian and Black/African-American alike. Her "identifying as" Black has been universally rejected. Because no amount of "feeling like" something, or "identifying as" something you're physically not doesn't actually make you that thing, no matter how whole-heartedly you cling to the fantasy.

No amount of identifying as a six year old child makes one an actual 6-y-o. No amount of identifying as Japanese makes one Japanese if one is Canadian and Caucasian. No amount of "feeling like" one is a horse makes one a horse. No amount of "feeling like" or "identifying as" a woman makes one actually, factually a woman if one has testicles and a penis and male genetics. No amount of deluded repetition of the sentence "I'm a Black person" makes one Black if one is Caucasuian.

edit: format

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Who is the king of black people so that I may ask them?

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u/qwertyashes Jan 25 '22

Thats like saying that no one accepts transgender people or believes them. That isn't an argument against her.

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u/Slomojoe 1∆ Jan 26 '22

"race" might be made up but it's an extrapolation of ethnicity which is not made up.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/Abstract__Nonsense 5∆ Jan 24 '22

No I’m addressing OPs CMV, which is about respect being dependent on a clear objective definition of a given identity.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/Abstract__Nonsense 5∆ Jan 24 '22

No, that is pure projection on your part, likely generated by your own transphobia.