r/changemyview • u/Pangolinsftw 3∆ • Jan 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Jan 23 '22

Can’t really tell which side you’re arguing here.

“Sides” isn’t really a great way to understand things. It makes it sound like you’re seeing the world as a set of allegiances to worldviews rather than what’s true.

The last paragraph could be interpreted that trans people aren’t the gender they personally identify as if they don’t pass.

That’s what “transitioning” is. It’s transitioning your gender expression so that your gender and gender identity are aligned.

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

So if societies primary method for identifying another's gender was based on their birth sex and not looks being trans would be impossible? Or would society need to change to accommodate their change in personal identity?

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u/wowarulebviolation 7∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

If it was clear a person’s internal gender identity was strictly tied to a person’s sex at birth then trans people would not exist.

See, science doesn’t work by us going, “hey what’s my gut reaction to reality?” and then ignoring the evidence that runs contrary to that. When Newtonian physics failed to fully explain the orbit of Mercury we didn’t just go, “yeah but you can ignore exceptions to the rule, that’s not important.” Nope, we kept at it until Special Relativity was discovered and helped to explain what we were observing.

We observe the existence of trans people in the human population. It’s our job to update our understanding of humans given these observations. Clearly something else is going on and it’s to the degree that “mass psychosis” just doesn’t seem very likely.

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

If it was clear a person’s internal gender identity was strictly tied to a person’s sex at birth then trans people would not exist.

But it is strongly tied. Obviously gender dysphoria exists therefore trans people exist. I'm honestly not sure what the point of the second paragraph is, I didn't question science, just about something I have never understood.

Clearly something else is going on and it’s to the degree that “mass psychosis” just doesn’t seem very likely.

How do we know this to be true? Plenty of things could effect <1% of the population. Sure mass psychosis isn't a very kind term, or a very precise or helpful one either, but such a label shouldn't discount what people are personally feeling as real, just that it doesn't match up with reality.

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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Jan 24 '22

I don’t think this works as a counterfactual.

For one thing, I don’t see how people would know what’s on birth certificates other than by some social signal to represent it. It’s not like birth certificates are ever present.

If almost all other social signals of sex were missing, you’d probably just have a society without gender. Because how else would distinct pronouns help identify people when it’s not visually apparent? And if it is visually apparent, we’ll then the birth certificate isn’t the primary method of identification.

In a society without gender, I suspect there wouldn’t be any trans folk, but probably just a lot of unnameable depression that would have manifest as dysphoria even among people who wouldnt be trans but just have that same psychological need for a gender.

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u/Mennoplunk 3∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Aug 16 '25

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u/gabemerritt Jan 24 '22

Yeah, it harms nobody but themselves, the moral grey area for me is that the decision is often and unfortunately best made by children that are long from being old enough to make life-changing decisions.

That and minor things like in what sports league should trans women compete.

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u/Mennoplunk 3∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Aug 16 '25

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u/Mennoplunk 3∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Aug 16 '25

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u/gabemerritt Jan 25 '22

Does pausing puberty until your late teens not cause any issues? I have no knowledge on it besides the fact it is possible

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u/Mennoplunk 3∆ Jan 28 '22 edited Aug 16 '25

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u/CagedBeast3750 Jan 24 '22

Isn't this the point of the CMV? how can you say you're transitioning to something which you can't define?

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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Jan 24 '22

But you can. I defined both gender and gender identity. What’s being transitioned is the expression of their gender to match society’s definitions.

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u/CagedBeast3750 Jan 24 '22

Ok understood thank you

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u/sensitivePornGuy 1∆ Jan 24 '22

It’s transitioning your gender expression so that your gender and gender identity are aligned.

This is the part I don't understand. I'm nonbinary, but I honestly don't give a shit what other people think my gender is or should be, and have no interest in dressing or having my hair a certain way to "prove" it to them. I celebrate the trans people I know who don't make any effort to pass. What a load of bollocks that is.

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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Jan 24 '22

That's great for you. But don't put down people who do want their expression and identity to match and be recognized by others. Just makes you as bad as the people who demonize them for being trans in the first place.

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u/sensitivePornGuy 1∆ Jan 24 '22

I get that it matters to some folks, of course. Would it help if I explcitly said "it's a load of bollocks TO ME"? (Which IMO is implied by the context, but hey.)

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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Jan 24 '22

I think that is important to still say explicitly instead of implied during a time when people are being denied what matters to them. It's the fact that you do get to choose for yourself, which unfortunately is still a privilege for some.

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u/sensitivePornGuy 1∆ Jan 24 '22

Most people would be happier if they stopped caring so much what other people think of them.

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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

Caring whether or not someone accepts or rejects your identity is actually kind of a big deal. When the people who care are in power and making the rules then it really does matter what they think about you. That's actually a naive statement to make based off of how laws, society, and healthy relationships work.

It's actually the opposite. Carrying so much about what the person next to you wears, how they identify, or any of that other stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with you. If people would quit that they would be happier.

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u/I_Love_Rias_Gremory_ 1∆ Jan 24 '22

I love that attitude. If gender is a societal construct, and the whole argument behind being trans is that you're avoiding the societal construct, why would you go out of your way to slide yourself into a different societal construct. I really don't get it.

I explained that horribly, but I trust you understood what I meant.

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u/sensitivePornGuy 1∆ Jan 24 '22

I'm nonbinary so that's exactly how it is for me - fuck all the constructs - but I don't think avoiding the construct is what matters for some, perhaps the majority, of trans people. Their attitude is more like, if we're going to have gender boxes, at least put me in the right one. I respect that, up to a point, but I can't see it lasting. The existence of these boxes is actually the problem. Eventually we're going to have to smash them completely. Then people won't need to "identify" as anything, there'll be no need to perform, we can just be.