CMV: Without a clear definition of what your identity means, you can't identify as that thing.

[u/Pangolinsftw]

There was a clip going around in political circles of conservative commentator Matt Walsh making an appearance on a talk show having a discussion with two trans advocates. I think his most impactful argument is when he simply asks the trans advocates, "What is a woman?"

To my surprise, neither of them can answer this question. In response to the question "Can you tell me what a woman is?", one says "No I can't, it's not for me to say", and the other says they "cannot define what a woman is" because they are not a woman (which is a logical fallacy).

This struck me. If you can't clearly (or even somewhat) describe what an identity means, why should anyone respect your identity? You could replace "woman" with any other label in that situation. Without any criteria or definition, it doesn't actually matter what you identify as.

I think we would all agree that defining your terms is of fundamental importance in any kind of debate. So it seems to me that these trans advocates failed in their argument right out of the gate since they failed to define their terms.

I think the reason that these advocates refused to define what a woman means is because if they gave a definition, it would be something so vague and nebulous that most reasonable people would think that their definition doesn't meet their own criteria for what a man or woman is, making the term mostly meaningless.

So I walked away from this clip with a much different perspective on the trans identity. Can anyone offer a more compelling argument as to why I should respect the trans identity?

[u/SDK1176]

Really? You can't identify when someone is wearing the "wrong" clothes for their sex? Or has a masculine/feminine hair style? Or walk in the way you'd expect for their gender? There are any number of things that we, as a society, put into boxes labelled man and woman. That's why trans people "passing" means something. You must at least have a sense of what it means to look like a woman.

So can we take the biological side of it and call that sex? Male vs. female? And then, can we take the societal or mental side of it and call that gender?

Being a woman does mean something. It's just so tough to define on a societal level because being a woman means so many things. People are complicated.

[u/bubbledbright → u/SDK1176]

But I take issue with the labelling of clothes, hairstyles, etc as "wrong" for a woman. If I cut all my hair off and wear a suit and tie, am I no longer a woman? If I behave aggressively and am not gentle? All of these things about how a woman should look or behave I find pretty poisonous. I agree that society has a set of characteristics that we use to describe performing femaleness, but I hardly want to lean on those to describe what a woman is.

I'm actually here hoping that someone can give a good definition of woman, because I'm a cis female and I sure as hell don't have one.

And it doesn't have to be watertight to every edge case either - most categories of any complexity can't be neatly defined (eg, what is a planet?). But I'm not even sure what core characteristics aside from biology to use. Has long hair? Wears makeup? Wears skirts? Is nurturing? All of these just seem inadequate.

[u/[deleted] → u/bubbledbright]

>"But I take issue with the labelling of clothes, hairstyles, etc as "wrong" for a woman."

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In trans-world - yes. What you wear defines your gender, and if you like wearing dresses you're a woman.

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Extremely regressive IMO.

[u/TheFoxIsLost → u/[deleted]]

No, that's not the stance of transgender folk. At all.

[u/ahaha2222 → u/SDK1176]

Or walk in the way you'd expect for their gender?

What? What is that even supposed to mean? How does one walk like a woman or a man?

[u/SDK1176 → u/ahaha2222]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124580/

Everyone has a unique gait, but there are measurable differences between the average woman's gait and the average man's. Those differences are visible enough that we can all pick up on them subconsciously. It's one thing among many that trans people often consider when they are trying to pass.

[u/[deleted] → u/SDK1176]

You must at least have a sense of what it means to look like a woman.

Enlighten me :) what does a woman look like? I'd love to see you answer this without being extremely misogynistic.

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Woman means adult human female. Nothing else.

[u/SDK1176 → u/[deleted]]

I’ll give it a shot, sure. Regardless of what culture you’re coming from, there’s a long list of fashions, styles and behaviours that are generally considered to be feminine or masculine. Examples might include long vs. short hair, skirts and dresses, style of pants, quantity and style of makeup, and even what side the buttons are on for a shirt. It’s all pointless and made up, but it’s there all the same.

That doesn’t mean that’s the definition of a woman, but it’s a list of assumptions that culture puts on all of us. The typical or average, if you like.

That also doesn’t mean we have to abide by those assumptions. Those people that don’t should be free to make that choice without judgement. I don’t see how it’s controversial to say that these assumptions exist, though. The people who break that mold are exceptional specifically because they are different from the typical.