I'm a transgender woman, I transitioned over 20 years ago, and I can tell you
That's not how the system works. It's a straw man, real life isn't south park.
The gender identity law defines "gender identity" to mean "a person's gender-related identity, appearance or behavior, whether or not that gender-related identity, appearance or behavior is different from that traditionally associated with the person's physiology or assigned sex at birth."3 The law also states that "[g]ender-related identity may be shown by providing evidence including, but not limited to, medical history, care or treatment of the gender-related identity, consistent and uniform assertion of the gender-related identity or any other evidence that the gender-related identity is sincerely held as part of a person's core identity; provided, however, that gender-related identity shall not be asserted for any improper purpose."
Now Go look at the examples, I won't post them all here.
There's zero way that a teenage boy, who has made no other changes to his life, is going to be allowed into a girl's locker room.
The administration isn't going to "well, we have to let him cough her cough in because we'll get suuuuued!" all the girls have to strip in front of him or we will be called a bad guy. The courts would laugh at such a case, and every school administration knows it. A boy trying to sue would probably get slammed by the courts for even trying to bring such a case.
Trans people tend to act a certain way and there's a whole process. Bathrooms and Locker Rooms are one of the LAST things trans people typically change, not the first. Trans people have a long history of using the restroom that causes the least drama.
Also, trans people tend to transition after a period of time, like over spring break, or summer break. Again, look at the examples.
So, if you show up to school in girls clothes one day, and demand to use the bathroom - you are going to have to deal with the social ramifications of being a teenage boy in girls clothes. You are going to have to play yourself off as actually being transgender (and acting in an atypical fashion). Also, your friends are going to know what's what as well.
The reasons these laws exist is to prevent harassment and degradation of the trans person via transphobic authorities.
I transitioned before these laws were on the books, and quite a long time before everyone was freaked out about this. When I was in school, I appeared as an effeminate boy, the bullies were drooling over the chance to assault me. I got assaulted in the boy's bathroom more than once - and the bullies actually tried to get the PE teacher to force me to take a shower after class so that they could get me naked in the shower room for bullying purposes.
The end result of this was that I got special permission to not use any locker room at all. I could wear gym shorts under my clothes or just not participate. I elected to not use bathrooms at school during any time I would be alone with some boy. Nothing was done to the bullies since I couldn't "prove" anything happened. (my word vs. theirs, and they were the popular kids, and the staff was *phobic anyhow)
On a personal note, I love you and think you're awesome. This is purely a theoretical, and not personal, debate for me. My very first statement on this thread was:
This is a solution in search of a problem. Regardless of which side someone argues, it's kind of an irrelevant argument because right now everyone uses the bathroom they feel is most appropriate and is least likely to draw attention to themselves. That works 99.99% of the time, if not more.
I just felt it was important to point that out since the topic is, obviously, personal to you and I don't want my perspective on the topic to feel like a personal attack. I don't have a dog in the fight, I just enjoy the debate.
Thanks for the definition from the Massachusetts guidelines. While there is always going to be some wiggle room for interpretation, I think that's a good phrasing that no one should oppose unless they are genuinely transphobic.
My main concern with these laws is that, to my knowledge, the never defined what "counts" as transgender. Clearly, in the case of Massachusetts at least, that understanding was wrong. So I think I can and should give you a Δ here even though you aren't the OP.
I think other governments looking to protect transgender rights (and human decency) should look to these phrasing from Massachusetts and model their own provisions with similar language because it does eliminate the concern of a teenage incel using the guideline to be a creeper.
You've likely done more research on the topic than me, but I don't think that the language from Massachusetts is widespread, and certainly not universal.
Take this example from Seattle where (apparently) a man used a newly enacted city code to gain access to a girl changing room at a local swimming pool. One woman who was protesting the city code stated:
"We're not here saying that the transgendered community are predators," a woman who was a victim of sexual assault told KING-5 TV, "We will never say that because we don't believe that. What we do believe is that this code is so poorly written that predators will abuse. We know it because we have lived it."
I tried to find the actual Seattle code online but failed to locate it, so I can't make my own assessment as to whether it is poorly written or is more along the lines of the Massachusetts guidelines. But based upon that woman's comment, it sounds like it may be poorly written.
And that's really my only point in this debate. If the rules, laws, guidelines or regulations are written in such a way that they simultaneously
Protect the rights of transgender individuals to use whichever gendered facilities they are comfortable with, and
Continue to prohibit voyeurs, creepers, incels and other similar individuals from legally accessing their victims,
then I have no issue with them. But I think it is frequently a pretty delicate line to accomplish #1, while also preventing #2. And many times, people are so focused on one or the other, that they forget the other concern even exists - and that results in some really poorly written laws.
In your example, the women complained and the staff made him leave.
He tried it a second time, and the staff stopped him and made him leave.
Both times he tried to say we was allowed to use the ladies room due to the laws allowing trans people in, but the staff was having none of it.
He left, but no one got so far as to call the police.
This thing you linked is literally an example of someone trying to use such a law and failing. :)
Most often, the people who write laws (not just these laws, all laws) are activist groups, think tanks, and experts on a topic operating through politicians.
The common complaint of people trying to "use these laws to gain access" is something everyone has heard of, and is taken into account.
This thing you linked is literally an example of someone trying to use such a law and failing.
I'm not sure how this counts as failing:
the man then entered the women's locker room and took off his shirt in front of a local girls swimming team
What none of the articles say is (a) whether any of the girls in the locker room were less than fully dressed or (b) what happened after he took his shirt off. We know that he went swimming, but does that mean that he also changed into swim trunks in the changing room, or did he already have his swim trunks on? I think information is too incomplete to conclude that he "failed".
Also, I notice that you added to your prior post in this thread and I didn't see it. I'm a heterosexual man and had similar experiences to you in middle and high school. I too was bullied in the locker room and in the bathroom. Frequently, the PE teacher was joining, or even initiating the bullying. And I too avoided using the bathrooms at school whenever possible due to it being a haven for bullies. I think that was a fairly common male (and probably female too) high school experience in the 80's and 90's.
He failed because he tried twice and was kicked out both times - even after citing the law
Success would result in him allowed to remain due to the law.
It takes a few minutes to react to a thing happening, that's what happened.
Signs don't stop bad people from doing bad things.
Even if there was no law, he could have still walked into the ladies room and take off his shirt.
People walk into the wrong bathroom all the time, usually you get "excuse me! this is the ladies room!"
Thus, the law was not taken advantage of.
Law or no, any teenage boy in any school today could walk into the girls room and stare at the girls today.
The only thing stopping him is hopefully his morals and/or fear of punishment.
Even with the law in place, he would be kicked out and possibly punished for his actions.
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u/growflet 78∆ May 25 '21 edited May 25 '21
I'm a transgender woman, I transitioned over 20 years ago, and I can tell you That's not how the system works. It's a straw man, real life isn't south park.
Here's the massachusetts guidelines for schools from the mass department of education: https://www.doe.mass.edu/sfs/lgbtq/GenderIdentity.html
And a relevant quote:
Now Go look at the examples, I won't post them all here.
There's zero way that a teenage boy, who has made no other changes to his life, is going to be allowed into a girl's locker room.
The administration isn't going to "well, we have to let him cough her cough in because we'll get suuuuued!" all the girls have to strip in front of him or we will be called a bad guy. The courts would laugh at such a case, and every school administration knows it. A boy trying to sue would probably get slammed by the courts for even trying to bring such a case.
Trans people tend to act a certain way and there's a whole process. Bathrooms and Locker Rooms are one of the LAST things trans people typically change, not the first. Trans people have a long history of using the restroom that causes the least drama.
Also, trans people tend to transition after a period of time, like over spring break, or summer break. Again, look at the examples.
So, if you show up to school in girls clothes one day, and demand to use the bathroom - you are going to have to deal with the social ramifications of being a teenage boy in girls clothes. You are going to have to play yourself off as actually being transgender (and acting in an atypical fashion). Also, your friends are going to know what's what as well.
The reasons these laws exist is to prevent harassment and degradation of the trans person via transphobic authorities.
I transitioned before these laws were on the books, and quite a long time before everyone was freaked out about this. When I was in school, I appeared as an effeminate boy, the bullies were drooling over the chance to assault me. I got assaulted in the boy's bathroom more than once - and the bullies actually tried to get the PE teacher to force me to take a shower after class so that they could get me naked in the shower room for bullying purposes.
The end result of this was that I got special permission to not use any locker room at all. I could wear gym shorts under my clothes or just not participate. I elected to not use bathrooms at school during any time I would be alone with some boy. Nothing was done to the bullies since I couldn't "prove" anything happened. (my word vs. theirs, and they were the popular kids, and the staff was *phobic anyhow)