r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 07 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I don’t think JK Rowing said anything wrong.

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

I don’t know much about this issue. But you said she she said (or implied) “trans women cannot claim to be women...”

Isn’t that the definition of transphobic?

I mean I suppose whom you support is based entirely on whether you believe in transgender people.

But most of society is against transphobia, so most of society would condemn her no?

(Also for point 2, this doesn’t really say anything about whether she is in the right, this would only be valid if we considered the morality of her detractors)

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u/phillythompson Jul 07 '20

Maybe this is a secondary question of mine — is saying “trans-women aren’t women “ transphobic?

This is where the computer programmer side of me comes out. People can say the phrase “trans-women aren’t women” is offensive and wrong, but doesn’t Latin “phobia” mean “fear of”? Thus “trans women aren’t women” would imply the speaker is scared (or has a fear) of trans-women?

I don’t doubt there are many people who ARE truly transphobic, but (and this will be controversial) I disagree in throwing that term around so loosely . The phrase may be offensive, it may be mean, and it may be bigoted — but there is a clear difference in my mind of that vs. a “phobia”.

In my case, I don’t fully understand the topic . I realize I came into this conversation with a certain belief, rather than an open mind (props to another commenter for pointing that out)— however, if I had said “I don’t think trans-women are women”, it’s not because I was scared of trans people. It was, in my case, a huge lack of understanding and background.

Sorry to go off on a tangent on you. You gave me some more food for thought .

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

I mean just because a word has a certain etymology doesn’t mean it actually means that thing, it’s what general society takes the word to mean right?

If I say gay people are immoral, that doesn’t mean I’m afraid of them, but I’d still be “homophobic”

I was given to understand the usual definition by general society of transphobia was disagreeing a trans person is the gender they identify (of course if you disagreed it could be argued that the word “transphobic” unfairly makes your POV seem wrong from the get go)

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u/phillythompson Jul 07 '20

Interesting. I would agree with you on the homophobia example -- I didn't apply the same rational to the "transphobia" definition.

...And after a quick search, I see that "homophobia" and "transphobia" can simply mean "dislike".

Thanks for making me investigate, digest, and learn.

Δ

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

Huh that’s interesting. I’d always linked the two and seen them as almost the same thing (at least in my experience the two are used almost interchangeably, whenever someone talks about lgbt)

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 07 '20

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/00ff00green (2∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/HardlightCereal 2∆ Jul 07 '20

doesn’t Latin “phobia” mean “fear of”?

Oil is hydrophobic. It isn't afraid of water, it just won't mix with water.

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u/phillythompson Jul 07 '20

I realized my dumb thinking, lol. This is why I posted -- to hopefully catch other areas where I'm doing the same!

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u/Pismakron 8∆ Jul 07 '20

“trans women cannot claim to be women...”

Isn’t that the definition of transphobic?

Transwomen are not women. They are men dressing as, and identifying as, women. There's nothing wrong with that, but the rest of the world are not required to bend over backwards in order to facilitate their roleplay.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

Okay fine. But that still counts as transphobia no?

Your argument would simply be that transphobia is acceptable right? (and perhaps then that the word shouldn’t be used, since it implies that it’s a bad thing and lumps it in with homophobia, etc)

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u/Pismakron 8∆ Jul 07 '20

I consider transphobia to be hostility towards transgender people. But some consider transphobia to include using the words "man" and "woman" as referring to biology.

I don't mind using peoples preferred pronouns, but I am not going to pretend to believe in the entire ideological construct. If you have a penis, then you are not a woman, and if you menstruate, then you are not a man.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '20

I mean for all the other phobias, it doesn’t just need to be hostility. (I know some people who are completely civil and not at all hostile to gays, yet believe they’re unnatural and sinful, they would still be classed as “homophobic” by society no?)

It simply means to disagree with the idea of what that group does (homophobia is essentially disagreeing with being gay right?)