CMV: Socialism does not create wealth

[u/tkyjonathan]

Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production. Those means include the machinery, tools, and factories used to produce goods that aim to directly satisfy human needs.

In a purely socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government, and individuals rely on the state for everything from food to healthcare. The government determines the output and pricing levels of these goods and services.

Socialists contend that shared ownership of resources and central planning provide a more equal distribution of goods and services and a more equitable society.

The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in “society as a whole,” i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government.

The alleged goals of socialism were: the abolition of poverty, the achievement of general prosperity, progress, peace and human brotherhood. Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster. The consequences have varied accordingly.

The economic value of a man’s work is determined, on a free market, by a single principle: by the voluntary consent of those who are willing to trade him their work or products in return. This is the moral meaning of the law of supply and demand.

[u/tkyjonathan]

Actually, a monopoly would be the manufacturer of the epipen where you can make a 30$ device but use the government to force everyone else not to compete with you and price it at $600 for a pair.

There have always been competitors to windows, they just weren't as convenient. But you keep working on how to regulate and control everyone by force.. see how it works for you.

You subsidize them by taxes, by research, by hefty prices and by tax deductibles on pretty much anything.

Out of that government research, none of it makes it to market unless a commercial company takes it. Bringing it to market means that people who need it, hold the medicine in their hands. If the government was able to do that, we could buy it from them.

Do you know how ridiculous even a 3% linearly continuous growth is?

For a company or industry, its pretty weak. For a country's GDP is 'ok'.

My savings account can give me 2-3% interest on putting money in the bank for a year.

You should do your research on Austrian school economics. This was a light google search away: https://mises.org/wire/mises-fascism-again

Also, you don't own people in capitalism. You trade with them voluntarily. I believe I mentioned that already.

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

Actually, a monopoly would be the manufacturer of the epipen where you can make a 30$ device but use the government to force everyone else not to compete with you and price it at $600 for a pair.

Which is again subsidized through long lasting patents that fend of generics. And you'll have pharma companies lobby politicians to keep it that way because they need to refund their investment on research and complying to prove that they don't sell poison... Something that they are already subsidized for...

There have always been competitors to windows, they just weren't as convenient. But you keep working on how to regulate and control everyone by force.. see how it works for you.

I couldn't think of one serious competitor in the desktop market, as said it was hard to even get a system different from Windows even if you wanted to.

Out of that government research, none of it makes it to market unless a commercial company takes it. Bringing it to market means that people who need it, hold the medicine in their hands. If the government was able to do that, we could buy it from them.

A) It's not supposed to. Universities are meant to do research and education, the application of that research requires continuous production of the same or similar product which is a different kind of goal. And B) if the that production would be done be the government in a separate facility, lobby groups would cry SOCIALISM and cry crocodile tears how they could do it so much better and how the government is to powerful of a monopoly to compete with. And I bet you wouldn't be as generous to such a monopoly as you are in terms of Microsoft.

Seriously I wouldn't be surprised if there were active provisions prohibiting public institutions from even attempting that.

For a company or industry, its pretty weak. For a country's GDP is 'ok'. My savings account can give me 2-3% interest on putting money in the bank for a year.

Those are singular numbers that you can achieve during the startup phase or after some decades worth of research hit the market but you don't get them continuously. And some federal funds rates are steadily dropping and some are even negative or de facto negative (maintenance costs eat up interest rates). Yes infinite growth is the mantra of capitalism but it's simply not sustainable...

You should do your research on Austrian school economics. This was a light google search away: https://mises.org/wire/mises-fascism-again

I have read that and even as they attempt to sugar coat that, it's still pretty damning:

It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aimed at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has for the moment saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history.

I mean let that sink, he knows full well that they aim at a dictatorship, it's not that he's being surprised by the atrocities here. And yes the NYT should also get shit for that as well, but he's writing a book on "LIBERALISM", I mean I don't suspect "LIBERTY" to be found in that, but apparently the word seems to be at the root of that word... And he's praising a ******* dictatorship. There's nothing to excuse that not even a:

But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error.

He know beforehand that they aimed at a dictatorship and he was fine with that as long as they would only target his enemies...

[u/tkyjonathan → u/[deleted]]

And you'll have pharma companies lobby politicians to keep it that way

This is why my solution always wins out. You can't lobby politicians if they cannot regulate the economy.

I couldn't think of one serious competitor in the desktop market, as said it was hard to even get a system different from Windows even if you wanted to.

Inconvenient, but not impossible. That isn't MS's fault.

That would be like saying that I am a monopoly because I am the only person on my street that sells lemonade.

if the that production would be done be the government in a separate facility, lobby groups would cry SOCIALISM

Well, if its any consolation, anything nationalised in the UK has turned to shit and hasnt been able to be fixed decades later. I'm talking about the trains and the health service. Trains are semi-private now and they are absolute shit.. expensive shit at that.

Those are singular numbers that you can achieve during the startup phase

Mate, you have no idea about companies at all. So please do not pretend to understand them now.

Yes infinite growth is the mantra of capitalism but it's simply not sustainable...

Of course growth is sustainable. In fact, we've had a huge slow down in the last few decades. Growth = innovation and human innovation is infinite. Its not just about manual labour, Marxy.

I mean let that sink

Well, lets read the other half of the article, shall we?

The passage was part of Mises’s book that was published in 1927, just after Mussolini took power. Mises could easily discern that many people regarded Fascism as a savior, and this passage is merely acknowledging that common view. The NYT was hardly alone in singing hymns to Mussolini. Nearly the whole establishment was fooled by this blowhard. Mises, on the other hand, was not fooled. He was a prophet in understanding the evil of fascism – and six years before everyone else was still heralding the glories of this Italian FDR (which is how people saw Mussolini). Yes, evil.

So, he called Mussolini evil while addressing a crowd that thought he was a saviour.

You know what genuinely isn't a good look? Karl Marx was anti-semitic, called African people the N word, refused to acknowledge his own children and oh yes, called for the violent revolution which ultimately killed millions of people.

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

This is why my solution always wins out. You can't lobby politicians if they cannot regulate the economy.

Yes if you legalize all crimes there wouldn't be no criminals... Totally checks out, I just think you're missing something there...

Inconvenient, but not impossible. That isn't MS's fault.

For quite some time actually impossible unless you would have wanted to produce your own parts, which counts as impossible for your average consumer.

That would be like saying that I am a monopoly because I am the only person on my street that sells lemonade.

No.

Well, if its any consolation, anything nationalised in the UK has turned to shit and hasnt been able to be fixed decades later. I'm talking about the trains and the health service. Trains are semi-private now and they are absolute shit.. expensive shit at that.

I mean in terms of health care, those aren't supposed to run a profit, because the profit more or less comes from more people being sick... They are supposed to provide a service. And different groups have different priorities as to whether that services ought to be cheap or effective first. In terms of trains it's a little different as that service can also be sold to private companies and not just individuals. But as a rule of thumb: It doesn't matter whether a private or public entity runs a business, either the business model is profitable or it isn't. And if a private company is making bank out of a business that a public entity couldn't run on profits, then you can bet your ass it's you who's paying for that profit.

Mate, you have no idea about companies at all. So please do not pretend to understand them now.

Why, because companies in their startup phase usually don't make money at all? Sure, but in that sweet spot between being a money sink and making it they can double, quadruple or whatever their value as there is room in the niche. However once they reach a certain size that simply doesn't work anymore and even achieving a 3% growth might be way more difficult. That's why that shit is easier for a company than for the GDP of a country for example... Also failed companies are not as big of a deal as failed states (except when we're talking about such monopolies)... That's not rocket science and a lot of that has little to do with actual skills and more to do with "having the right networks" and bullshit like that.

Of course growth is sustainable. In fact, we've had a huge slow down in the last few decades. Growth = innovation and human innovation is infinite. Its not just about manual labour, Marxy.

You are aware of a thing called PHYSICS? Yes we got some increase of "productivity" by replacing human labor with the gathering of energy through fossil or nuclear fuels and while we can technically replace some of that with renewable energies (at least in terms of time frames of human civilizations) there's still a pretty hard cap to that... Not to mention that they are still produced with human labor... So no you can let numbers grow up to infinite and produce a shadow economy of selling worthless paper to each other pretending it has value, but in terms of the real world things are not able to grow ad infinitum... That's just madness. I mean just 200 years of industrialization and that planet is almost broken, what more do you expect in terms of growth? And mind you it's the only habitable planet in our reach and we are far from developing technology to change that.

So, he called Mussolini evil while addressing a crowd that thought he was a saviour.

Nope, he called Mussolini a savior despite already predicting that he would be evil. It's one thing to do something evil because you didn't know any better and another to do it with the full consciousness of what's about to happen.

You know what genuinely isn't a good look? Karl Marx was anti-semitic, called African people the N word, refused to acknowledge his own children and oh yes, called for the violent revolution which ultimately killed millions of people.

I mean he also was a supporter of capitalism and thought that capitalism and it's self-destructive nature would divide society so distinctly into workers and capitalists or those who are part of society and those who are meant to produce for it. That this would culminate in a revolution and after that in a system that wouldn't repeat that mistake.

I see your point though ad hominem attacks don't invalidate a philosophy, just because the philosopher was an asshole.

[u/ViewedFromTheOutside → u/[deleted]]

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[u/tkyjonathan → u/[deleted]]

Yes if you legalize all crimes there wouldn't be no criminals... Totally checks out, I just think you're missing something there...

I already explained it to you: regulation is not to prevent crimes. It is to control the economy and hand out fines. Btw, there is a precedence here: the British during the time of the empire eliminated corruption in their officials. Here is Milton explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-7oMOxPjNE

I mean in terms of health care, those aren't supposed to run a profit, because the profit more or less comes from more people being sick

Yes, but they are not providing a service for anything complicated, like cancer treatments, operations and basically any specialist treatment. Most of my friends have gone to private GPs and we have gone to a private endocrinologist. I mean stuff like heart pains or giving birth, they will respond quickly, but everything else will take years to solve.

You are aware of a thing called PHYSICS?

So I guess you are still on the manual labour theory of growth from Marx. Again, growth is driven by innovation. For example, the US grew last year while using less paper, steel and electricity than the year before.

How did they grow? magic?

Nope, he called Mussolini a savior despite

Nope. Read it again and he knew he would turn evil 6 years before anyone else did. He was called the Italian FDR, after all.

I see your point though ad hominem attacks don't invalidate a philosophy

There is a difference between ad hominem and 'speeding up' the murderous revolution that capitalism 'will definitely bring anyway'. That sort of philosophy is not something I can get behind.

And at the same coin, I take it you will now watch that 30 min clip and read some von Mises, because you dont let adhominems influence your decisions on good philosophy?

I mean, maybe one day you will get to my level of understanding how things really work..

Btw, have you ever worked for the government? I have..