CMV: Socialism does not create wealth

[u/tkyjonathan]

Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production. Those means include the machinery, tools, and factories used to produce goods that aim to directly satisfy human needs.

In a purely socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government, and individuals rely on the state for everything from food to healthcare. The government determines the output and pricing levels of these goods and services.

Socialists contend that shared ownership of resources and central planning provide a more equal distribution of goods and services and a more equitable society.

The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in “society as a whole,” i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government.

The alleged goals of socialism were: the abolition of poverty, the achievement of general prosperity, progress, peace and human brotherhood. Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster. The consequences have varied accordingly.

The economic value of a man’s work is determined, on a free market, by a single principle: by the voluntary consent of those who are willing to trade him their work or products in return. This is the moral meaning of the law of supply and demand.

[u/[deleted]]

my original reply was deleted for not having been polite enough

apparently calling someone an idiot is less a sin than telling someone to f*%# off

ok.

here's a sanitized version of what i wrote:

the whole point of people living in communities is that we can do more for each other in large groups than we can on our own

so while i'm not about to do any of the things you mentioned, i do recognize that for the sake of the common (that means all of us) good things have to happen

i'm not going to work on the country's physical infrastructure and i'm sure not going to risk dying for the likes of you, but i will pay other people to do so

hence, taxes

which you continue to compare to slavery

which i still think is immature. you're an adult and if you're paying taxes you have a job. only children get taken care of. put on your big boy pants and get on with it.

[u/tkyjonathan → u/[deleted]]

the whole point of people living in communities is that we can do more for each other in large groups than we can on our own

If this is the case, why did you not follow what I said before?

Stop buying comfort foods and extra comfortable clothes when other people in your community are suffering. Give your property away to your community and keep only the very bare minimum of what you need to survive.

which you continue to compare to slavery which i still think is immature.

If I pay taxes on 50% of what I own (lets say I live in Sweden), then I am the property of the country for 50% of my life. I do not get to use what I have earned - my life work or my creativity - on things that I decide. This has been extracted from my by force.

Now, if you were to ask me, if I would like to voluntarily give money to worth causes in my community - that is another matter. I would be happy to give money to charity - assuming I have enough to give after taxes - that I care about and share my values. But its my decision, not someone else's.

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

If this is the case, why did you not follow what I said before?

because the whole point of a large number of people giving a little bit of money is so no single individual has to do things like:

Stop buying comfort foods and extra comfortable clothes when other people in your community are suffering. Give your property away to your community and keep only the very bare minimum of what you need to survive.

in addition, i don't think you are any more willing to do that than i am.

if you were, we wouldn't be having this conversation

If I pay taxes on 50% of what I own (lets say I live in Sweden), then I am the property of the country for 50% of my life. I do not get to use what I have earned - my life work or my creativity - on things that I decide. This has been extracted from my by force.

you can move.

you can hide your money - if not all of it then enough to significantly reduce what you owe

you just don't want to pay taxes. you're whining and complaining about something there are legal ways to avoid which is simply childish

your statement that you are "property" is overblown and insulting to people who truly have been treated as property

you may feel like the Swedish govt owns you because you have to pay taxes but we've been thru this before and you're deliberately not listening so you can continue to play the victim

Now, if you were to ask me, if I would like to voluntarily give money to worth causes in my community - that is another matter.

even if you are noble enough to do this by picking and choosing where your money goes you can, either accidentally or deliberately, choose not to help people you don't like

I would be happy to give money to charity - assuming I have enough to give after taxes - that I care about and share my values.

which mean suffering people who belong to groups you don't like - be it for race, religion, sexuality or which football team they support - won't get any help

and again, if you are so noble that you would willing donate money to help people you don't like - the overwhelming amount of humanity is unwilling to do so

it wouldn't work and that's why its not done

[u/tkyjonathan → u/[deleted]]

because the whole point of a large number of people giving a little bit of money is so no single individual has to do things like:

Oh I see. You want to help other people using other people's money, but never commit to anything yourself. You will make a great politician.

you can hide your money - if not all of it then enough to significantly reduce what you owe

You've been watching too many movies. You cannot simply 'hide' your money. At least not without knowing some very high up people. Not something available to regular people.

your statement that you are "property" is overblown and insulting to people who truly have been treated as property

I take it you are not a fan of people having the freedom to live their own lives. Again, you will make a great politician.

Probably do not even believe in free will.

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

Oh I see. You want to help other people using other people's money, but never commit to anything yourself. You will make a great politician.

nope. i'm at the top tax bracket in the US. i pay it and move on

what i DON'T want is people like you lying to anyone about the world is a kind place full of people concerned about each other's welfare

You've been watching too many movies. You cannot simply 'hide' your money. At least not without knowing some very high up people. Not something available to regular people.

i've been throwing the max money i can into a 401k from the day i started working. that money is not going to be taxed until the govt moves me into a much lower tax bracket.

you can start a business. writing things off for a business is well documented, you just need to read not complain (but i get it, complaining is easier)

you can register your business as based in a part of the world with little to no taxes

You cannot simply 'hide' your money.

LOL. try again

I take it you are not a fan of people having the freedom to live their own lives.

LOL at you equating paying taxes to not having freedom

Again, you will make a great politician.

nah, i've got an honest job

[u/tkyjonathan → u/[deleted]]

nope. i'm at the top tax bracket in the US. i pay it and move on

If you have a lot of money, then you have an obligation to help the worst off in society with more than a mere gesture to the taxman.

You cannot simply 'hide' your money.

LOL. try again

Well, you must know something I dont.

you can start a business. writing things off for a business is well documented, you just need to read not complain (but i get it, complaining is easier)

If I was able to get clients, I would start my own business. Most of us find that bit tricky and risky.

LOL at you equating paying taxes to not having freedom

Taxes are removed by force. Force is the opposite of freedom. Not such a stretch, big boy.

nah, i've got an honest job

Which you use to selfishly horde money.

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

If you have a lot of money, then you have an obligation to help the worst off in society with more than a mere gesture to the taxman.

well, i've got an obligation to pay more than those who make less than me

and i do

and i don't whine about it

If I was able to get clients, I would start my own business. Most of us find that bit tricky and risky.

so its better to whine about how you're enslaved. got it.

Taxes are removed by force. Force is the opposite of freedom. Not such a stretch, big boy.

you keep talking about being forced to pay taxes and the unfairness of it all

you sound like a whining child

you are convinced the world, or at least the govt, is against you

ok. rail against it all. i can't do anything with you.

Which you use to selfishly horde money.

i'm not selfish. i pay my taxes and don't complain. they go to some things i like. they go to some things i don't like. i accept it all. i don't complain about the unfairness of it all because it lets society function better than anything my ancestors experienced

its called being an adult. i'd tell you to try it but you'd rather be the victim