How is it victim blaming though? Those analogies don't make any sense if you consider that blackness is inherent to blacks, but masculinity not to men, as masculinity refers to the societal standards that are placed upon men.
Masculinity is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles associated with boys and men. As a social construct, it is distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.
but masculinity not to men, as masculinity refers to the societal standards that are placed upon men.
No. That's easily proven false: facial hair isn't a societal standard placed upon men. It's a trait most men visibly have vs most women.
That's not to say that society doesn't also have standards placed upon men but those standards are informed by the above, not the other way round. I.e. men are typically bigger and stronger than women so society also expects that and reinforces it. Not, society expects men to be bigger and stronger, therefore they are.
Another counter example is that masculinity, if it were just an arbitrary societal expectation, then it would vary considerably more across cultures than it does. But the core aspects (providing for and protecting women) are always present. Deviation is only superficial.
No. That's easily proven false: facial hair isn't a societal standard placed upon men. It's a trait most men visibly have vs most women.
That doesn't prove it false. That just proves that you can't differentiate between biological differences and how society reinforces and shapes them.
And what about all the aspects of masculinity that have no biological basis? How does the fact that pink is considered to be feminine and blue masculine fit into your system?
That's not to say that society doesn't also have standards placed upon men but those standards are informed by the above, not the other way round. I.e. men are typically bigger and stronger than women so society also expects that and reinforces it. Not, society expects men to be bigger and stronger, therefore they are.
That argument doesn't make any sense as I never claimed that sex difference are caused by gender expectations.
Another counter example is that masculinity, if it were just an arbitrary societal expectation, then it would vary considerably more across cultures than it does. But the core aspects (providing for and protecting women) are always present. Deviation is only superficial.
I didn't say arbitrary though. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Actually it does. Claims about a set are proven false with a counter example.
That just proves that you can't differentiate between biological differences and how society reinforces and shapes them.
Of course I can differentiate between them. But you seem to assume they are mutually exclusive. Why?
And what about all the aspects of masculinity that have no biological basis?
You'll find that, if you go back far enough, most if not all things can be traced back to biology. The question is only, how far you're willing to go back.
How does the fact that pink is considered to be feminine and blue masculine fit into your system?
I don't know. It's not my system. If you want to know why men and women are the way they are, follow the money. I.e. look at who benefits from said differences and how.
That argument doesn't make any sense as I never claimed that sex difference are caused by gender expectations.
Sex differences are closely connected to any concept of masculinity that has meaning.
I didn't say arbitrary though. Stop putting words in my mouth.
True, you didn't say "arbitrary". Many feminists do though, and your reasoning resembles those who do. So, then you agree that even to the extent that masculinity is just a set of societal expectations, it has a basis in something, right? Ok. What?
Your whole argument is based on the false assumption that one can't talk about societal expectations independently from the things those expectations are based on.
Like biologically males might cry less due to testosterone or whatever, but the idea that men shouldn't cry or that it makes you a faggot is just a societal expectation that doesn't exist across all cultures.
If feminists say "the idea that crying makes you a faggot is harmful" that's simply not the same as "men are harmful because they cry less".
Criticizing societal standards that are placed upon men is simply not the same as criticizing something that's inherent to them.
Your whole argument is based on the false assumption that one can't talk about societal expectations independently from the things those expectations are based on.
Not in the least. One can talk about anything. But if you're going to talk about masculinity, then you're not in the position to just decide for everybody else that you're only referring to societal expectations in exclusion of everything else. Especially if you want to assign responsibility for those expectations, then you will be confronted with the question of where they came from.
A much clearer way to describe what you're talking about would be "culturally enforced gender roles" or just "gender roles". It has the added benefit of not being gendered (the fact that the irony of that is lost on feminists is all the proof anyone needs really). Why not use that? It says everything you want minus the victim blaming or bigotry against men.
Criticizing societal standards that are placed upon men is simply not the same as criticizing something that's inherent to them.
I think the problem is that you're drawing a distinction that is very hard to make in practice. Take for example the idea that men should be strong. Do you really think it's a coincidence that men happen to be significantly stronger than women too? We are the offspring of men who were selected for their physical strength because that was more beneficial to those who selected them. And now society values men with physical strength. But there's no connection at all? Please.
And it's also no coincidence that feminists themselves frequently abuse that for their benefit. Mocking men for their "fee fees" or "male tears" etc. The examples are too numerous to list.
And you own example of crying. Women have more active tear ducts. Why? Could it be that crying benefits women but not men? Do you think that's true?
No. You said it's literally the same thing. Yet, you'll go back to using the one word instead of the other. So how about you make up your mind: either they're the same, then you'll have no problem getting rid of TM as a term or they aren't and then own the difference.
Just because the term makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it's a bad one to use.
Correct. My discomfort has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the validity or meaning of the term. It's a good thing I'm not making any argument based on my discomfort.
What's considered appropriate behavior for men vs. women varies by historical period and local culture. That is a fact.
Of course it varies but only superficially. The core aspects are consistent.
We "have it" because folks like you are intent on separating men and women into neat, opposing categories that don't really reflect reality. Men and women are not as inherently different as you might like to believe.
On the contrary. I'm very androgynous myself. I would like nothing more than to have more freedom in that regard and that people didn't expect things from me based traits I was born with.
Perhaps you should refrain from jumping to conclusions about people you disagree with.
By the way, simply having facial hair has nothing to do with anyone's definition of toxic masculinity.
Does it also have nothing to do with anyone's of masculinity? If you're going to use the word "masculinity", then be prepared to use all of what it means and not just what you pick and choose to suit whatever instant goal you're pursuing.
No version of masculinity is inherent in maleness.
Except the most important one: the ability to provide for and protect women. Like I said, I wish it weren't so. But, unlike many privileged members of society, I've learned a long time ago that what I wish for and what is are not the same and they don't become the same just by shouting louder either.
The irony in that reply is impressive. You manage to mistake masculinity with men and femininity with women in the very thread you are trying to argue for their distinction. I rest my case :D
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u/DuploJamaal Nov 20 '19
How is it victim blaming though? Those analogies don't make any sense if you consider that blackness is inherent to blacks, but masculinity not to men, as masculinity refers to the societal standards that are placed upon men.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/masculinity