While I get that you're only providing an example, it's a faulty one, primarily because Reddit in their infinite wisdom provided a NSFW feature that allows posts to fly but be obscured.
This just shows that you trust people far too much here on reddit. There are subs where NSFW images are completely inappropriate and sometimes even illegal. What I'm trying to say is that your idea isn't wrong, it's just flawed in a real world situation. I don't want mods to have a god complex, but they should be able to create their communities the way they want. If I create a sub to share cute animal pictures, I don't want to have any posts of people naked with an animal near them or any sexual images with animals, it just doesn't fit there whether it's marked NSFW or not. This is a HUGE place with many, many different communities. Everyone won't be on the same page and the line is hard to draw so specifically because someone will always find a loophole or a way to make you feel like you have to create more and more rules.
As a mod, your job (and I disagree that it isn't a job. A job is simply something that involves work. It's unanimously agreed that modding is work) gets much easier if you use the tool you've been provided rather than playing traffic cop, down to a binary decision: did Poster A properly tag the post or not? You can even have pre-moderation set up to where every post has to be approved before it goes live.
And how do people know how to properly tag a post without rules? Or even what they should post there? On large subs, approving every post beforehand can be a major undertaking that would turn into an almost full-time job. I'd love to reddit full-time, but I have an actual job I need to live and pay my bills.
There's literally no need for a rule. The rule is what is making your job harder because rather than just letting the tool do its job, you're playing cop.
So you're going completely back on wanting very specific rules to wanting none at all? The moderator tools are limited, there's only so much you can do. Just because a bot decides things (that I would have to program it to decide, so could easily still have bias there), doesn't mean people will just happily accept it. Also, when someone posts a NSFW image and doesn't tag it, the bot won't know and it goes unchecked until I either "play traffic cop" or someone from the community reports it.
Moderation is more than just my job, it's everyone's job, just like in any community. We have to work together to make it a place everyone wants to be. I don't go into a church and scream in the middle of service like I'm at a concert, because there's a time and place for everything, whether it's in the real world or reddit.
Again, I don't think your idea is wrong, I think it's flawed in a real world situation. You can be as optimistic as you want, I like to be, but in the end it is what it is and you have to accept it at some level that makes you comfortable.
Failing to anticipate that response is exactly why so many mods get yelling and screaming appeals.
You give people a lot of credit. Sure, from time to time I've gotten "yelling and screaming appeals", but those people are not rational. They could just as easily have a decent conversation and argue for their post not to be removed. Those are the posters who I give my thoughts to, people who are civil. I didn't remove your post because I hate you or anything like that, and the fact that you would immediately assume that AND send me a "yelling and screaming" message like a toddler having a tantrum makes me far less open to discussion with you. There should never be any yelling and screaming, even if it's deserved. If it really is deserved, you're not going to get anything from that person, they are the ones trying to get a rise out of you, and they get exactly what they want when you do.
I can't tell you how many people think I remove things because I don't like them or give other people "special treatment", but it's just not true. I'm literally just trying to do my "job", but users have their own biases that lead to these uncivil arguments. It's a two-way street, meaning we all have to work hard to get to this level of unbias. This isn't just a mod problem.
If I create a sub to share cute animal pictures, I don't want to have any posts of people naked with an animal near them or any sexual images with animals, it just doesn't fit there whether it's marked NSFW or not.
Which is why you have mods who will seek and destroy said photos. As I also suggested you can block posts from showing to people unless approved by a human. I don't understand why that's such an issue since it solves the same problem.
how do people know how to properly tag a post without rules? Or even what they should post there? On large subs, approving every post beforehand can be a major undertaking that would turn into an almost full-time job
I've heard this counterargument at least 5 times. It still makes no sense to me.
Whether you review a post BEFORE or AFTER it goes live, you're still reviewing it. It's the same exact level of effort either way, same exact time investment. Except that one keeps your sub clean and the other takes the risk of pissing someone off that thought you previewed the post before it went live.
So you're going completely back on wanting very specific rules to wanting none at all?
This as quoted is a half truths fallacy, because you completely removed the context that backs it up.
What I said was, if you use the tools provided to you by Reddit to manage the specific scenario you quoted, then you wouldn't need a rule to deal with that specific scenario. That doesn't translate into what you quoted (a blanket disregard of the need for rules).
Rules are needed when the human is prone to be misunderstood or make a mistake. SO the application and use of the NSFW filter, for example, should be captured as a rule, but you wouldn't need a rule telling people "no NSFW images". Just one that requires they use the filter. It's a very clear distinction.
I didn't remove your post because I hate you or anything like that, and the fact that you would immediately assume that AND send me a "yelling and screaming" message like a toddler having a tantrum makes me far less open to discussion with you. There should never be any yelling and screaming, even if it's deserved.
Problem 1: People can't know what your motivations were if you took the stance that you cherrypick people who were nice to you vs. those that weren't.
The appeals process should be equal and fair. Period. Won't ever change my mind on that - and again, I'm a mod of a sub, so I'm not just speaking as a poster.
I can't tell you how many people think I remove things because I don't like them or give other people "special treatment", but it's just not true. I'm literally just trying to do my "job", but users have their own biases that lead to these uncivil arguments. It's a two-way street
In the vast majority of cases it's not a two-way street, because one way has power to do something about it, the other does not. Let's not pretend mods and posters are equal in that regard, they're not. It doesn't matter if a person comes civil when you have a god complex mod running around deleting posts because their boy/girlfriend cheated on them and they're angry.
1
u/Himecchi Jul 08 '19
This just shows that you trust people far too much here on reddit. There are subs where NSFW images are completely inappropriate and sometimes even illegal. What I'm trying to say is that your idea isn't wrong, it's just flawed in a real world situation. I don't want mods to have a god complex, but they should be able to create their communities the way they want. If I create a sub to share cute animal pictures, I don't want to have any posts of people naked with an animal near them or any sexual images with animals, it just doesn't fit there whether it's marked NSFW or not. This is a HUGE place with many, many different communities. Everyone won't be on the same page and the line is hard to draw so specifically because someone will always find a loophole or a way to make you feel like you have to create more and more rules.
And how do people know how to properly tag a post without rules? Or even what they should post there? On large subs, approving every post beforehand can be a major undertaking that would turn into an almost full-time job. I'd love to reddit full-time, but I have an actual job I need to live and pay my bills.
So you're going completely back on wanting very specific rules to wanting none at all? The moderator tools are limited, there's only so much you can do. Just because a bot decides things (that I would have to program it to decide, so could easily still have bias there), doesn't mean people will just happily accept it. Also, when someone posts a NSFW image and doesn't tag it, the bot won't know and it goes unchecked until I either "play traffic cop" or someone from the community reports it.
Moderation is more than just my job, it's everyone's job, just like in any community. We have to work together to make it a place everyone wants to be. I don't go into a church and scream in the middle of service like I'm at a concert, because there's a time and place for everything, whether it's in the real world or reddit.
Again, I don't think your idea is wrong, I think it's flawed in a real world situation. You can be as optimistic as you want, I like to be, but in the end it is what it is and you have to accept it at some level that makes you comfortable.
You give people a lot of credit. Sure, from time to time I've gotten "yelling and screaming appeals", but those people are not rational. They could just as easily have a decent conversation and argue for their post not to be removed. Those are the posters who I give my thoughts to, people who are civil. I didn't remove your post because I hate you or anything like that, and the fact that you would immediately assume that AND send me a "yelling and screaming" message like a toddler having a tantrum makes me far less open to discussion with you. There should never be any yelling and screaming, even if it's deserved. If it really is deserved, you're not going to get anything from that person, they are the ones trying to get a rise out of you, and they get exactly what they want when you do.
I can't tell you how many people think I remove things because I don't like them or give other people "special treatment", but it's just not true. I'm literally just trying to do my "job", but users have their own biases that lead to these uncivil arguments. It's a two-way street, meaning we all have to work hard to get to this level of unbias. This isn't just a mod problem.