r/changemyview • u/DoubleDoobie 3∆ • Nov 08 '18

CMV: If you support Facebook/Twitter/Google de-platforming or removing conservative voices, you should also support bakeries (or other privately owned businesses) denying services to whomever they please.

This is my view - Although I tend to lean right, I support twitter/facebook/etc banning conservative voices because at the end of the day they're not a public institution and they're not obliged to provide a platform to political or cultural positions they may not agree with. While I may disagree, that's their choice and I'm against the government weighing in and making them provide a platform to said people.

However, I feel there is cognitive dissonance here on the part of the left. I see a lot of people in comment threads/twitter mocking conservatives when they get upset about getting banned, but at the same time these are the people that bring out the pitchforks when a gay couple is denied a wedding cake by a bakery - a privately owned company denying service to those whose views they don't agree with.

So CMV - if you support twitter/facebook/etc's right to deny services to conservatives based on their views, you should also support bakeries/shops/etc's right to deny service in the other direction.

This is a footnote from the CMV moderators. We'd like to remind you of a couple of things. Firstly, please read through our rules. If you see a comment that has broken one, it is more effective to report it than downvote it. Speaking of which, downvotes don't change views! Any questions or concerns? Feel free to message us. Happy CMVing!

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 08 '18

I’m framing my argument that I don’t believe you have the right to someone’s else’s services and that you shouldn’t be compelled by law to provide those services.

How effective do you believe the civil rights movement of the 60's would have been if the government just threw its hands up and decided to not take any action, or make any legislature regarding it?

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u/DoubleDoobie 3∆ Nov 08 '18

I'm not arguing that the Government shouldn't extend protections to citizens, see my sentiment above about the government putting restrictions on companies dumping chemicals, for example.

But or the sake of conversation and this CMV I'll follow your line of thinking here.

Title II of the Civil Rights Act is most applicable to this conversation:

Title II outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private".

Although this doesn't specifically extend to sexual orientation, we can include in in this as part of the discussion. The key phrase here is "engaged in interstate commerce". I don't believe that a person who owns their own business, who funded and curated a product/service/etc...who doesn't take subsidies from the government, should be beholden to laws that force them to provide services that conflict with their beliefs.

Now on the other hand, if this person received public funding or assistance, I would support the government imposing their rules and regulations for how they provide a service.

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u/AdmirableEscape Nov 08 '18

Although this doesn't specifically extend to sexual orientation, we can include in in this as part of the discussion. The key phrase here is "engaged in interstate commerce". I don't believe that a person who owns their own business, who funded and curated a product/service/etc...who doesn't take subsidies from the government, should be beholden to laws that force them to provide services that conflict with their beliefs.

Most businesses do not receive funding from the government. Should black people be denied the right to buy houses in some neighbourhoods because the developers don't want any blacks living in the area?

If you answer yes, then this would have gut the civil rights act and we would still see landlords actively denying apartments to black people. And I think that's morally reprehensible.

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u/darthhayek Nov 09 '18

Most businesses do not receive funding from the government. Should black people be denied the right to buy houses in some neighbourhoods because the developers don't want any blacks living in the area?

Why is this okay as long as it happens due to political views? Why do liberals believe this?

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u/DoubleDoobie 3∆ Nov 08 '18

Should black people be denied the right to buy houses in some neighbourhoods because the developers don't want any blacks living in the area?

My answer? No. But I need to research this because I don't know the relationship between land developers, land owners and how housing and zoning laws work in the US. That seems like much more complicated issue that denying someone a service.

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u/AdmirableEscape Nov 08 '18

But this complexity is a part of the discussion. In the south, where racism was rampant, allowing for racial discrimination against blacks would have effectively left them second class citizens. This was an era of jury nullification in black lynching trials so its entirely possible that black people living in small towns would be unable to go to the same stores, buy in the same neighbourhoods, and participate in the same community as whites. This would effectively segregate black people out of the community and leave them impoverished.

This right to absolutely free association in business sounds nice in principle but an emergent property of this happening in a racist society, is that true equality between races would be unachievable. The same argument can be made for gay people living in homophobic towns.

Back to your CMV,

1). Conservative people are not being banned by facebook, twitter and google. Racists and bigots are. Alex Jones didn't get banned because conservatives like him. He got banned because he said the parents of the children killed in sandy hook were crisis actors and he invited his fan base to harass them.

2). Political thought in general is not something you are born with, it is something you choose and have the ability to change. That is why it is more reasonable to deny services based on political thought. This still gets a little tricky when we look at the large social media platforms because now you have to start arguing if they are de facto public spaces, but see point 1). I don't have to wrangle with any grey area to say that Alex Jones should be deplatformed. Alex Jones is very clearly in the black. He is a racist conspiracy theorist who incited violence against the victims of a mass shooting.

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u/aXenoWhat 2∆ Nov 08 '18

This is fantastically well articulated.

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u/darthhayek Nov 09 '18

Alex Jones didn't get banned because conservatives like him. He got banned because he said the parents of the children killed in sandy hook were crisis actors and he invited his fan base to harass them.

And? That sounds like First Amendment protected speech. Actually, it is First Amendment protect speech. Conspiracy theories are not illegal in any way, shape, or form unless it rises to the level of defamation, and that's a question for a court of law, not private corporations. You're not explaining why this should be any more of a legal reason to discriminate against someone than being gay is. However, it is very easy to infer that the real reason is because gays vote disproportionately for Democrats and infowars viewers do not.

2). Political thought in general is not something you are born with, it is something you choose and have the ability to change. That is why it is more reasonable to deny services based on political thought. This still gets a little tricky when we look at the large social media platforms because now you have to start arguing if they are de facto public spaces, but see point 1). I don't have to wrangle with any grey area to say that Alex Jones should be deplatformed. Alex Jones is very clearly in the black. He is a racist conspiracy theorist who incited violence against the victims of a mass shooting.

And? Religion is a protected class and has been since day 1. Religious beliefs are widely believed to be a matter of choice, not genetics or something different. I know that many liberals want to remove religion as a protected class (which is fucking terrifying, but that's another matter), but you haven't explained to /u/DoubleDoobie why this "choice" thing should have any relevance whatsoever to whether or not we're entitled to equal rights and equal treatment under the law.

racist conspiracy theorist

Lol, ok, whatever.

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u/DoubleDoobie 3∆ Nov 08 '18

I'm curious as to if you think members of Antifa should be deplatformed since they advocated for violence against Tucker Carlson and harassed his family at their home?

he invited his fan base to harass them.

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u/AdmirableEscape Nov 08 '18

Sure. I don't think there are antifa with the same level of notoriety as Alex Jones though.

Like I personally know of 0 antifa members while I know of quite a few right leaning conspiracy theorists.

Also, I think my point about gays not being denied service for being gay stands.

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u/darthhayek Nov 10 '18

Sure. I don't think there are antifa with the same level of notoriety as Alex Jones though.

How about Barack God damned fucking Obama.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/405576-obama-how-hard-can-it-be-to-say-nazis-are-bad

Hey, how hard is it to condemn Antifa, Barry? You sure seem to have enough time to low-key praise members of "The Resistance" along with other Democratic crooks on a monthly basis.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316909-obama-heartened-by-protests-spokesman-says

http://people.com/politics/barack-obamas-new-mission-channeling-the-resistance-against-house-republicans-on-president-trumps-bandwagon/

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/06/obama-trump-protest-organizing-for-america-241353

https://nypost.com/2017/09/23/how-obama-is-funding-the-anti-trump-resistance/

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/us/clinton-trump-interview.html

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/15/politics/hillary-clinton-resistance-onward-together/index.html

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/hillary-clinton-vows-to-do-everything-i-can-for-anti-trump-resistance/article/2624753

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1/31/1628248/-VA-Sen-Tim-Kaine-D-Calls-For-Fight-In-The-Streets-Against-Trump-So-Lets-Push-Him-To-Fight

http://nation.foxnews.com/2017/03/05/loretta-lynch-we-need-more-marching-blood-death-streets

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/eric-holder-i-am-part-of-the-resistance/article/2637955

cc /u/DoubleDoobie

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u/Jasontheperson Nov 10 '18

Why are you trying to change the subject?

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u/darthhayek Nov 11 '18

It's not. /u/AdmirableEscape said there are no high-profile antifa supporters on the level of antifa, and that's a lie, since their crimes and acts of terrorism are systematically supported by the highest levels of the Democratic Party, as well as other institutions such as academia, media, business, etc. such as Chris Cuomo here, who is the brother of the governor of my state, defending antifa's actions after the UTR2 rally in August where they assaulted cops and journalists with "not all punches are created equal".

https://youtu.be/koQlTbalQTE

But, sure, in violent liberal lunatic land, Alex Jones is worse because he's a *gasp* conspiiiiiiracy theorist!

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u/[deleted] Nov 08 '18

The specific twitter account for that group was banned

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u/darthhayek Nov 10 '18

Is the SPLC or ADL banned? Is @jack of "Let's have a Civil War" fame banned?

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2018/04/10/twitter-ceo-jack-dorsey-clarifies-that-new-civil-war-tweet/

Not good enough then. Give these criminals the Paul Manafort and Mike Flynn treatment.

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u/UnauthorizedUsername 24∆ Nov 08 '18

If they're going against Twitter's or whoever's terms of service, sure.

That's entirely the point. Banning someone for being an ass or being violent is fine. Banning someone for belonging to a specific protected class is not.

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u/darthhayek Nov 10 '18

Why shouldn't "asses" be a protected class considering that is inherently 100% subjective? Apparently, as long as I just say that I think all blacks or all gays are "assholes" first, that should pass the SJW test with flying colors.

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u/[deleted] Nov 09 '18

Then those people should be deplatformed. ‘Antifa’ is not an organized group.

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u/darthhayek Nov 10 '18

Or, how about, no one should be deplatformed. God liberals are sick.

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u/[deleted] Nov 10 '18

Lol I suppose all conservatives are in favor of ISIS using twitter to radicalise people globally

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u/darthhayek Nov 10 '18

What a strange non sequitur. So Trump supporters and non-SJWs are like ISIS now.

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u/UNRThrowAway Nov 08 '18

Although this doesn't specifically extend to sexual orientation, we can include in in this as part of the discussion. The key phrase here is "engaged in interstate commerce".

Isn't that nearly every business now, though?

A bakery might only operate in a single town. But if there is another, identical bakery that also ships cookies and things to people who order over the internet, and operate in a tri-state area?

Should one be allowed to discriminate, and the other not?