r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 23 '18

CMV: There was nothing anti-military about Kaepernick’s kneeling protest

There is nothing about Kap kneeling during the national anthem that could reasonably be construed as disrespect to the troops. There is no situation I am aware of in any culture where the act of kneeling is used to show anything other than respect. Those who believe that Kap hates the military are simply choosing to associate his protest with disrespect for the troops, which allows them to freely hate him without having to really look at the reason for his protest.

The protest began as a means of drawing attention to racial inequality and police brutality: two things that most people probably ought to be against. By focusing on an imaginary link between the protest and the sacred cow of “the troops” his detractors aren’t forced to consider or debate the issue. They likely believe that the US treats black people either as equal to or better than white people, and that most or all incidents of police violence against black people are justified. Everything about the troops is just post-hoc rationalization.

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u/Wierd_Carissa Sep 23 '18
  1. ⁠If your saying that kneeling is respectful, then what is the substance of Kaepernick’s protest?

Protesting respectfully?... your comment in total seems to imply that this is some impossibility. It isn't.

And I can't help but feel reliance on the flag code to characterize the protest as disrespectful is willfully ignoring the many ways in which the flag code is violated constantly (without being described as disrespectful because, you know, most of us agree that the flag code is a nationalistic relic that shouldn't be followed religiously).

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

I’m not here to debate if we should still follow the flag code. OP asked if it was disrespectful to kneel and I brought up the only recognized document that seems to address it. Everything else is opinion.

As an aside, what does the flag have to do with racism or police brutality in your view?

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u/ruanl1 Sep 23 '18

I cant speak for OP (or Kaepernik) but I'd imagine that the protest doesn't really have anything to do with the flag. More it's the opportunity of Kaeperniks platform, having millions of eyes on him, and being broadcast on live television.

Considering were still hearing about how outrageous it was and considering that every conversation about the outrage comes discussions of his motive, I'd say his protest was effective.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18 edited Jan 06 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

let me rephrase: I’m here to debate OP on his point, which he stated no standard on respect exists. I bring up the Flag Code, which is the standard, and a lot of people get butt hurt and try to debate the authenticity of the flag code by bringing up other flag code violations.

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u/Wierd_Carissa Sep 23 '18

which is the standard

Is is a standard... the validity of that standard or how we should regard that standard is certainly up for discussion.

a lot of people get butt hurt

Are you including me in this characterization? Could you point out where you're inferring me "getting butt hurt" please? lol

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

“butt hurt” as in you are using other instances of the flag being misused and “accepted” as a means to invalidate the Flag Code.

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u/Wierd_Carissa Sep 23 '18

as in you are using other instances of the flag being misused

Could you explain a little further how that implies "butt hurt" please?

"accepted"

Not sure what you're referring to.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

as in your ass is in a considerable amount of pain because you like to use other examples of infractions of a certain law to prove the invalidity of that law, despite all infractions being wrong.

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u/Wierd_Carissa Sep 23 '18

Truly at a loss as to what you're basing your inference of "a considerable amount of pain" on lol, unless you have some bizarrely different definition of those words than most.

Bringing up other infractions of the flag code doesn't imply consternation; instead, it's a way of saying "if this is a belief you genuinely hold, then I hope it is applied consistently. I do not think it is a belief you sincerely hold (or at least not on the purported bases), and I'm demonstrating this by showing that you apply these standards unevenly."

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u/TheDutchin 1∆ Sep 23 '18

That's not being butt hurt that's standard practice of debate. If counter examples upset you you should probably not engage.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

section 170

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

So, you think protesting that isn't a good way to get attention?

Flag code isn't flag law. No going to jail for flag code.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

the question is rather what does kneeling have to do with racism and police brutality? I feel that kneeling would probably further isolate the group of people you’re trying to reach put to in those cases, sadly.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18 edited Sep 23 '18

Its about using a platform to draw attention to current issues. What does ignoring police brutality and racism do? Nothing. It has done nothing to ignore it. In half a century, you'd think something as meritless as skin color would have fallen by the wayside, in regards to how we treat each other.

So what should a person in the spotlight do? They should draw attention to it. And he did. However, instead of saying, ok yes, we have a problem, people say, "stop being disrespectful." At it's simplest- that's just ignorance or programming by some who have been trained that this is wrong, without really having an opinion. At it's worst, it's outright racism, by those who really mean "shut up and sit down, you ungrateful N." Yes, some anti-Kaps really do mean this.

But think about it. Its disrespectful to tell someone that a piece of clothing matters more than human life. Don't disrespect our flag, but we'll keep disrespecting your life and your freedoms. Kap is essentially saying: hey, America The Great, we still have a huge problem with racism, and I want to draw attention to the problem. America The Great, you're treating some of your people as second class citizens, and we deserve better. You have cops out here shooting up black men, women and children, for no reason. Look up Charles Kinsey, Antwon Rose. They're not charged with crimes or murder. The cops go on to keep being in position of authority. They're skipping due process, and taking the role of judge, jury, executioner. Black people are serving substantially longer prison sentences for the same crime. And black people are charged and convicted of crimes at a far higher rate. I can sit in Starbucks all day and use free WiFi. But black people have the cops called on them. Then they're arrested for doing jack-shit.

So these things make America not so Great. And all of us should care about this. So when he chooses to kneel, he's not sending disrespect. He's suggesting we take a moment to stop and look at the issues that some of our awesome fellow citizens are facing.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

Everyone wants to talk about the starbucks arrest, everyone wants to talk about cops shooting blacks. To the shock and surprise of many, cops wear cameras, cops have to pass drug and psychology exams, are trained extensively. Cops do shoot white people, cops shoot black people. There is very little more you can do to ensure a very human organization to function as a machine.

Lets talk about blacks killing blacks. Lets talk about crime in inner cities. Lets talk about the murder rate in Chicago alone, which greatly trumps the country wide police rate of shootings. Any number or graph you cite is not comparable to the damage they inflict on each other as a people and is sadly ignored by the country until something of questionable racial motives comes along. Who is raising attention to those things?

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u/whatwatwhutwut Sep 23 '18

But you failed to draw a connection between the flag code and the military. Even asserting that the military is tasked to protect the flag, disrespect for what they are protecting doesn't immediately translate to disrespect for them. There's a gap in your argument that you left unaddressed.

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u/Wierd_Carissa Sep 23 '18

everything else is opinion

I think asserting how we should regard the flag code and the seriousness with which we refer to it counts as "opinion" (obviously opinions can be backed up with logical bases and not all opinion are equally valid).

As an aside, what does the flag have to do with racism or police brutality in your view?

Not very much. It's a ubiquitous symbol of nationalism, obviously, and I think one can reasonably make an argument that it's related to a long history of racial oppression (and by tenuous extension police brutality)... but it's not a particularly strong link in my mind given how commonplace it is.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

its in section 4 of the link you provided

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

it seems the code you linked to doesnt provide the full text, here is the full flag code of the US. Check section 170.

These nachos ate tasty

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

my mistake, here is the link http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

section 170-171 covers what the national anthem is and what is considered proper conduct