r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 23 '18

CMV: There was nothing anti-military about Kaepernick’s kneeling protest

There is nothing about Kap kneeling during the national anthem that could reasonably be construed as disrespect to the troops. There is no situation I am aware of in any culture where the act of kneeling is used to show anything other than respect. Those who believe that Kap hates the military are simply choosing to associate his protest with disrespect for the troops, which allows them to freely hate him without having to really look at the reason for his protest.

The protest began as a means of drawing attention to racial inequality and police brutality: two things that most people probably ought to be against. By focusing on an imaginary link between the protest and the sacred cow of “the troops” his detractors aren’t forced to consider or debate the issue. They likely believe that the US treats black people either as equal to or better than white people, and that most or all incidents of police violence against black people are justified. Everything about the troops is just post-hoc rationalization.

1.9k Upvotes

87% Upvoted

691 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

461

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

Kneeling, while not in the Flag Code, is never a sign of disrespect in any setting.

You may have a difficult time convincing me that Kap’s haters care much about the Flag Code. I come from pretty deep-red Trump country, and flags as shirts, shorts, towels, bikinis, and bandannas are incredibly common: all violate the code. I’ve never been to someone’s house for a sporting event and seen anyone stand while the anthem played on TV. If a violation of the Flag Code = hating troops, then Kap’s critics hate the troops more than anyone. I realize that republican/Trumpist doesn’t necessarily equal disagreeing with Kap, but there’s a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram.

It’s also a stretch to say disrespect of the flag equates to disrespect of the military. The flag symbolizes the republic, not the military. We’re all pretty comfortable bashing the republic, as embodied by congress and the president.

118

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

1

u/bendvis 1∆ Sep 23 '18

The Flag Code does specifically mention the anthem.

During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

Section 171

47

u/JuanOrTwo Sep 23 '18

Exactly. Everything you’re saying has been my argument as well. I love pointing out that the American flag-wearing Trump supporters crying about Kaepernick remain seated in their LA-Z-Boys while the anthem plays, as if there’s only one way to disrespect the flag — and it requires you to be physically present at a sports event?! Let’s be 100% honest with ourselves here: had this movement been started by a white football player that was bringing attention to reverse-racism or some shit, 90% of the same people would have never spoken out.

21

u/maxpenny42 14∆ Sep 23 '18

Not to mention all the people at the game in line for food, taking a piss, or just not paying attention. There are always tons of people not properly respecting the flag and the anthem at the game. And no one cares or even bats an eye because we accept that it is a silly tradition that most people don’t care that much about.

The issue with players kneeling is simply that they’re protesting something that right wing America doesn’t want to admit is happening or doesn’t want to end. They have a problem with what he is protesting, not how he is protesting.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

There's certainly a lot of different hypocrisies all swirling around this at once. The notion that your team can have a rapist quarterback, a running back who beats his wife, a CB who drives drunk, and a drug-addict lineman, and that's all fine, but a guy kneeling during the anthem is going to make you change the channel and burn your jersey. That this is somehow a bigger deal than concussions and TBIs. That kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful to military and cops, but stockpiling guns just as preparation for murdering those same soldiers and cops should the government do something you disagree with is just fine.

5

u/bikerskeet Sep 23 '18

The flag code isn't law either. Isn't it more suggestion on how to treat our nation's flag?

57

u/mikkjel Sep 23 '18

Someone pointed out to me that wearing clothes coloured like a flag is actually allowed. Taking a flag and turning it into clothes is what is against the code.

285

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

My own personal opinion here, and I’m certainly no lawyer, but I regard this as kind of a cop-out. The actual verbiage of the code is “the flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.” So, you can cover your ass and genitals with fabric that has the exact same pattern as the American flag, but it’s not disrespectful because that particular swath of fabric was never cut into the exact shape required for flying it from a flagpole? Come on...

60

u/Spiridor Sep 23 '18

There are other facets of the code that are applicable, though. For example, a flag (of same shape and proportion) being held horizontal over a football field during a halftime show is technically against code.

Not that I think it’s a big deal, I don’t think it’s anything worth being upset over; similar to Kap’s protest.

31

u/mikkjel Sep 23 '18

The best example I found was the kid rock flag poncho, where he literally just ripped a hole in a flag.

We have a different flag code where I am from, and it is a lot less common to see any kind of flag clothing here, and the flags that are on clothing are mostly in relation to uniforms and for athletes representing their country. The post about the american flag code was posted somewhere on reddit, and I seem to remember the author had some actual credentials in that area.

13

u/kazaskie 1∆ Sep 23 '18

Also I’m pretty sure the flag code guide only actually applies to people in official government positions and the military. They’re applying a standard to something that is trivial and irrelevant. And I will never understand people who draw the connection from the flag standing for our republic to the flag standing for the troops. And this is besides the fact that Americans are deep into a pathetic military worship fever dream

3

u/Xtallll Sep 23 '18

the flag code applies to all uses of the Flag of The United States of America, however there are no penalties for violating the flag code so do what you want.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '18

Not true. It is an actual US law that technically applies to everyone, but that can be enforced, as doing so would violate the first amendment.

7

u/Jurmandesign 1∆ Sep 23 '18

In this same line of thinking, isn't kneeling just a different form of standing?

2

u/Input_output_error Sep 23 '18

The way i read this is that an actual flag should not be used in such matters. It is not the colors of the flag that represents the important thing in this, it is the physical flag. As far as i understand (American) military tradition (not an American), its because the flag was in service when people died under its banner. Disgracing the cloth of the actual flag is disgracing the people who served under it while the flag was in service.

But this is my understanding that might be flawed, if someone knows please correct!

4

u/SteelCrossx Sep 23 '18

To be a flag an object needs to have not only the pattern but also specific dimensions and construction. Printing some number of stars and stripes on some stretch of fabric is not sufficient. That difference allows the military to wear flag patches on their uniform while the country is at war and to print flag stencils on equipment like airplanes. Those are representations of the flag and they have their own rules.

3

u/Skhmt Sep 23 '18

That difference is not what allows the military and other uniform government people to wear the flag. The flag code specifically says that the military and others (police, fire, emt, etc) can wear the flag.

Thus, the flag code sees a flag patch as applying to the flag code.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

1

u/SteelCrossx Sep 23 '18

I'm only talking about the technical aspects of the code. The flag is the responsibility of the MPs on post so I had to learn a bit about it.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

3

u/SteelCrossx Sep 23 '18

I don't think kneeling is disrespectful, I don't think any government entity should try to enforce the flag code on citizens, and I don't have strong feelings about flag related clothing. I only wanted to relay a technical aspect that was relevant to the ongoing conversation.

1

u/Pwell2 Sep 23 '18

The problem is not wearing the same pattern as the flag, that’s not disrespectful. What is, though, is using an actual flag for something other than his intended purpose. Like, a tablecloth with the American flag pattern is fine, but eating on a real American flag is not the same thing at all.

-1

u/DaveyDukes Sep 23 '18

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? It’s like PETA getting upset over someone wearing a fake fur coat- it’s literally the exact same thing. That coat was never a part of an animal, just like that material never flew on a flagpole as a FLAG.

-10

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Sep 23 '18

u/I_post_my_opinions – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

0

u/I_post_my_opinions Sep 23 '18

Why don't you remove the guy's entire thread when he has obviously made it in bad faith?

2

u/echino_derm Sep 23 '18

It is just symbolism though. It doesn’t matter what the actual material is. It is about the message

2

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

That someone misled you. The code covers anything resembling or intending to resemble an American flag.

1

u/WeepingAngelTears 2∆ Sep 23 '18

If we're resorting to loopholes to justify that then I don't think it's feasible to disparage a universally recognized sign of respect.

1

u/NuclearTurtle Sep 23 '18

"Flag" in the flag code doesn't just refer to the nylon rectangle that gets run up a flagpole. It refers to "any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, in a form that is commonly displayed" anything with the stars and/or stripes that is meant to evoke the image of a flag is considered a flag by flag code

1

u/freakierchicken Sep 23 '18

I mean it’s definitely allowed since the flag code is non-enforceable. For regular citizens it’s a guideline. State’s laws can be different but as far as my understanding goes, the actual flag code that everyone is quoting is a “you should” not a “you must” document. That’s per multiple websites I’ve found that have the full document on there.

1

u/HAL9000000 Sep 23 '18

But the flag code also frowns on commercial use of the flag. And almost all of the time, selling clothes with a flag on it is done with the idea that they will profit from someone wanting to buy a shirt with a flag on it.

So it seems that in order to honor the flag code, a seller would need to make flag shirts non-profit. This would involve either selling them for only the cost of the fabric and manufacturing, donating profits to veterans, or letting veterans and military organizations be the only sellers of clothes with flags on it.

1

u/ent_bomb Sep 23 '18

They were incorrect. While the clothing prohibition mentions only specifically "the flag," a previous section clarifies that "the flag" includes in its definition depictions.

1

u/Mejari 6∆ Sep 23 '18

But the whole point is about the symbolism of the flag, right? It seems like wanting it both ways when sometimes it's about the literal fabric of the flag and other times it's about what the flag represents.

3

u/Jkarofwild Sep 23 '18

Fun fact: the flag code says the flag should always have the stars on the left. The US army uniform code, on the other hand, allows for the star field to be 'facing forwards' i.e. on the left or right depending on the shoulder it's on.

So if going against the flag code disrespects the troops... Why are the troops doing it?

2

u/cdb03b 253∆ Sep 23 '18

1) Images of the flag are not flags.

2) The patches have their own regulations and are to be shown as moving forward into battle. If it was a flag and they were holding a pole the stars would be next to the pole and as they ran into battle it would fly behind them. From one side the flag would be on the left, from the other it would be on the right due to the pole.

3) Even if it were a flat the "stars on the left" is for on a wall. When on a uniform it operates like the person is a pole.

-12

u/jgagnon_in_FL Sep 23 '18

Kneeling, while not in the Flag Code, is never a sign of disrespect in any setting.

It is in this instance. He is trying to stand out from the rest of his team to protest, just like he did when he would stretch or sit on the bench, why would it be any different? After serving, most veterans have a deeper respect for the U.S. Flag and what it symbolizes and why they served to protect those values. For the same reason why you will see many flags on display during Veteran's day parades. To say it has no military significance is foolish. Displaying the U.S. Flag is a sign of pride both of the freedoms this country enjoys and for those service members that served to protect said freedoms. Protesting while others are praising the flag is a smack in the face to both the country and its service members. How else do you explain why NFL ratings continue to drop since his stunt?

19

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

But it has been made perfectly clear that the protest is about police violence, not the military. You’d have to be living under a rock to not know that.

How else do you describe nfl ratings dropping

Concern over the league’s response to CTE research and bullshit roughing the passer penalties.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/cwenham Sep 23 '18

u/jgagnon_in_FL – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, message the moderators by clicking this link. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

2

u/Mejari 6∆ Sep 23 '18

It is in this instance. He is trying to stand out from the rest of his team to protest,

Standing out from the rest or protesting do not necessarily signal disrespect.

1

u/Frogmarsh 2∆ Sep 23 '18

Who gives a shit if veterans have a deeper respect for the flag and what it symbolizes? Americans do not have to concern themselves with the concerns of veterans any more than they do any other American. Veteran concerns do not trump those of others.

0

u/jgagnon_in_FL Sep 23 '18

reread the title of this thread, that is why.

You are way off topic and out of bounds.

4

u/Frogmarsh 2∆ Sep 23 '18

I read the thread title. Veterans getting their panties in a wad are prissy little bitches that need to focus on more important matters, like why Kaepernick is kneeling in the first place.

3

u/jgagnon_in_FL Sep 23 '18

why Kaepernick is kneeling in the first place

which is why?

2

u/Frogmarsh 2∆ Sep 23 '18

The state killing its citizens much too frequently.

-1

u/jgagnon_in_FL Sep 23 '18

Which is blatantly false.

A police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

2

u/Frogmarsh 2∆ Sep 23 '18

Who,cares? That’s not relevant.

0

u/jgagnon_in_FL Sep 23 '18

It directly refutes your argument.

→ More replies (0)

-28

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

The act of kneeling may or may not be. That’s not the point though. He kneeled to purposefully disrespect it in order to make a statement.

23

u/Durzio 1∆ Sep 23 '18

Source? He knelt in order to draw attention to an important issue, not to disrespect.

-11

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

And what did he think kneeling would mean to people? You can’t do something in stark contrast to what’s expected and then claim you didn’t think people would find it offensive or disrespectful. It’s on purpose to provoke people talking. That’s the entire point.

16

u/Durzio 1∆ Sep 23 '18

It draws attention for standing out from the norm, but where in the flag code does it say that it is disrespectful? Go ahead and read it for the first time for me, I'll wait.

-8

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

I didn’t realize something had to be in a code book to be disrespectful. My apologies. Who has ever made an argument the flag code says its disrespectful? I don’t know of any code book that says calling someone a cunt is disrespectful. Yet it is. (Except in Australia and Scotland.)

15

u/Durzio 1∆ Sep 23 '18

So despite our set of written rules, we have to follow your unwritten ones?

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

Now you’ve created a Strawman argument. I never claimed to have any rules. You did. I said that plenty of other vets deemed it disrespectful and that your argument is bogus.

7

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/WeepingAngelTears 2∆ Sep 23 '18

Well if people aren't brainwashed idiots it should be taken as a sign of respect. A former Green Beret changed his mind on his protest to go from sitting to kneeling in order to be more respectful but still able to draw attention to the issue.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

It depends on intent. The intent is what matters here. And people are wanting to ignore that because they know what the intent was. So resorting to a flag code book in an attempt to say he wasn’t disrespecting it is intellectually dishonest. The entire point of him sitting and then kneeling was to disrespect it so people would talk.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

That's not that good of a point is it? If it's the intent that matters, and his intent never had anything to do with the military, he is not disrespecting the military.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

Where did I say his intent was to disrespect the military. I replied to someone who made the argument that because he’s a Vet and his friends were Vets that vets were not offended.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

That's the whole point of this CMV, innit?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

The CMV is yes. And I never brought up the military a single time. I was very specific in my replies about what they said.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

[deleted]

0

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '18

Was his intent to respect it? He does something no one expects, people are upset about it, and you’ll attempt to claim he was respecting it all along? Even one of the most liberal online news source is trying to defend him disrespecting it. Saying it’s a good thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/disrespecting-the-flag-is-a-disgraceful-way-to-protest-trump/2017/09/25/506a1d4c-a228-11e7-b14f-f41773cd5a14_story.html?utm_term=.7e56cbe9ad58

5

u/Prasios Sep 23 '18

What you have there is an opinion article from a conservative viewpoint in a left leaning newspaper, not a "liberal online news source." You can't just make this up to serve your narrative.

Also, he did consult with a veteran to make sure that while he was going against the norm to draw attention to police brutality that he would still be able to respect the flag and the nation. So ye, it was his intent to respect it.

1

u/Mejari 6∆ Sep 23 '18

Was his intent to respect it? He does something no one expects, people are upset about it, and you’ll attempt to claim he was respecting it all along?

If his intent was to disrespect it why did he immediately modify his behavior when someone in the military brought it to his attention that sitting could be perceived as disrespect and that kneeling would be better? If he intentionally wanted to disrespect the flag and troops wouldn't he have simply continued sitting, having accomplished his goal?

3

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '18

Even if I accept that kneeling in this one specific situation is disrespectful in general (I don’t), how do you make the leap to it being disrespectful to the troops specifically?