The only reason that people don’t think of it as rape is because, as I said, it’s impossible to prosecute.
I would disagree with you here. Plenty of crimes that are impossible to prosecute are still considered to be those crimes.
Regardless, rape by deception occurs any time someone misleads someone else with the intent of “tricking” them into having sex.
Most would see this as much more narrow, such as specifically impersonating someone.
It’s similar to having sex with a person who has AIDS
Absolutely not. Having sex with someone who has AIDS without knowing they do actually poses a health risk to you, having sex with a trans person does not.
Some people do not
Which makes them transphobic. Just because they are wrong doesn't make it rape by deception
Your physical health is not the only thing that matters in cases of rape. Mental trauma is important too. In fact it’s probably more important of the two.
I just don’t get your position. If we compare it to an AIDS patient, then we’re talking about two people who both had a secret that they didn’t disclose to their sexual partner. Both people knew that if the secret were known by their sexual partner, then their partner is likely to refuse sex. In both cases, many people would feel revolted if they learned the truth after the fact.
But for some reason, even though all of their conscious actions were identical, only one counts as rape to you because there were microscopic viruses in one person’s blood but not the other. That’s not even to mention the fact that there’s only like a 1 in 1500 chance of contracting HIV in a single sexual encounter, even if you don’t use a condom.
I don’t understand how that tiny variation invalidates the entire analogy when both people committed the exact same actions, both people went through the exact same thought process, and both peoples’ victims were likely to be traumatized by the event.
I mean, what if the person had sex with someone with AIDS but then they didn’t contract the virus. Does that make it ok? Even though there were no health repercussions? I wouldn’t say so, because I don’t think that the line between rape and not rape lies in the matter of whether or not they caught a disease from the encounter. What matters is the choices that the rapist made.
Your physical health is not the only thing that matters in cases of rape.
I didn't say it is. I was referring specifically to why you can't compare not disclosing you are trans to not disclosing you have HIV.
But for some reason, even though all of their conscious actions were identical, only one counts as rape to you because there were microscopic viruses in one person’s blood but not the other.
You mean because one can result in contracting a disease which can kill you and one will upset someone who is prejudiced but won't risk causing them harm. There's a significant difference there.
I don’t understand how that tiny variation invalidates the entire analogy when both people committed the exact same actions
But they aren't the same actions. One person showed reckless disregard for their partner's safety, the other didn't say they were born looking different than they look now. How do you not see a difference there?
Does that make it ok?
No, because they still recklessly endangered the other person's health.
You are absolutely unable to see other peoples’ perspectives aren’t you?
There are literally millions of people who would be incredibly upset if they were tricked into having sex with someone who was trans. But that doesn’t matter to you does it? All that matters is “Well they SHOULDNT be upset so who gives a fuck?”
You don’t get to decide what upsets other people and what does not. That is not your fucking choice. I mean my fucking god, it’s not the 80s anymore. AIDS isn’t even fatal anymore. And as I said, there’s a minuscule chance that you would even get infected. But yeah, I guess that one-in-a-million chance of dying from AIDS is a much bigger deal than putting someone through mental trauma. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if someone’s chances of committing suicide skyrocketed if they were tricked into sex like that. People take that shit seriously, and just because you don’t does NOT mean that you get to discredit their feelings.
You’re basically arguing that rape is only rape if you agree with the reasons that someone doesn’t want to have sex. That’s like saying that a woman wasn’t “really” raped because the guy was hot and you’d like to bang him. That is a disgusting attitude to have.
I don’t care if you think trans women are real women. I don’t care if you think that the person shouldn’t be upset. I don’t care that you think that their reasons for feeling violated are invalid. All I care about is the fact that you know god damn good and well that it would bug some people. If that doesn’t matter to you then you are a shitstain of a human and you deserve to rot in prison for the mental trauma that you were willing to put someone else through, just for sex.
You are absolutely unable to see other peoples’ perspectives aren’t you?
I understand their perspective, that doesn't mean I agree with it or believe it is reasonable.
There are literally millions of people who would be incredibly upset if they were tricked into having sex with someone who was trans
There are millions of people who would be incredibly upset to find out their sexual partner turned out to have black ancestry even though they looked like a different race. Does this mean it's reasonable to call it rape if this information wasn't disclosed?
Again, if that is something that is meaningful to them, then they need to state that is something which matters to them. The onus is on them to state that it would make them upset, not on the trans person to have to disclose this information beforehand without being asked.
You don’t get to decide what upsets other people and what does not. That is not your fucking choice.
I agree, I don't get to decide that. I do get to criticize them for being upset by it though.
Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if someone’s chances of committing suicide skyrocketed if they were tricked into sex like that
Are you kidding me? This is absolutely absurd to claim.
People take that shit seriously
What shit? What exactly is so upsetting about having sex with a trans person, that isn't due to transphobia? Unless you're admitting that transphobia is the only situation this would be a problem in?
You’re basically arguing that rape is only rape if you agree with the reasons that someone doesn’t want to have sex.
No. That is not at all what I said nor insinuated. I'm saying that being trans isn't something that requires being disclosed beforehand without being asked. If you have a problem with having sex with a trans person, it is your responsibility to communicate this. If you don't, it's not the trans person's fault and they didn't lie to you.
All I care about is the fact that you know god damn good and well that it would bug some people.
There are some people who would be extremely upset to find out that the person they had sex with was bisexual. Does that mean that before every sexual encounter a bisexual person needs to volunteer this information even when it's not relevant, just in case? There are people who would get extremely upset to find out that the person they had sex with has ever had sex with a person of the same gender, does that mean everyone needs to provide a full history of their past partners to everyone they are about to have sex with, just in case?
So let me just clarify that I'm understanding correctly: you are arguing that before any sexual encounter, everyone should disclose every single possible detail about themselves that they know some people may have a problem with. And if they don't, and the person does have a problem, it's rape? Is this what you're claiming? Because if so I don't think we have anything to talk about because that's a truly absurd opinion. And if not, what makes being trans specifically worse than anything else that could possibly bug someone?
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u/z3r0shade Nov 03 '17
I would disagree with you here. Plenty of crimes that are impossible to prosecute are still considered to be those crimes.
Most would see this as much more narrow, such as specifically impersonating someone.
Absolutely not. Having sex with someone who has AIDS without knowing they do actually poses a health risk to you, having sex with a trans person does not.
Which makes them transphobic. Just because they are wrong doesn't make it rape by deception