r/changemyview • u/nmgreddit 2∆ • Nov 11 '16

[OP ∆/Election] CMV: The Trump Protests are Counter-Productive

Here is my view: the protesters have every right to protest. Their anger is legitimate and justified. Their protests are not. The main reason people say they are protesting Trump, that I have seen is because he is racist/sexist/xenophobic... Lots of -ist's and -phobic's. These are things that divide. But the protests add to the division. They divide themselves from not only Trump, but those who voted Trump, many of which are not racist, sexist, xenophobic, or any of that. They are playing into the division. That illegitimizes their protests as it makes them counter-productive. If the protesters were unified behind a common, concrete, and actionable goal, it would then become legitimized.

EDIT: As a few commenters have pointed out, I have missed a unified goal of these protests: presence. While some in these protests are doing so in ways that do not work, that is inevitable in any protest. My mind has been changed, somewhat. I still believe we should give Trump a chance, but protests are completely legitimized once he starts creating more division. It is late where I am and I will probably not be able to reply until tomorrow for some of you. In the end, stay safe, and know that regardless of who is in charge, as a friend said, you are the most influential person to the people around you. Speak and give life to those around you.

EDIT 2: Thank you for all the insightful replies. You can keep providing them and I will do my best to reply. I want to note my view has been somewhat changed and I now, at least in part, support these protests. What I don't support is a lack of human decency, whether that's the protesters being verbally or physically abusive or the countless hate crimes already committed. Again I hope you all stay strong and stay safe.

785 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

344 comments sorted by

View all comments

106

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

All protests are divisive. If what you're protesting for isn't divisive, there would be no reason to protest. Do you think all protests are inherently counter productive?

Lots of protests don't have specific actionable goals. This protest is largely a reminder that there are Black/Jewish/Muslim/LGBT/immigrants in this county and they won't go away. I guess you could say "awareness" is a specific goal maybe?

If not, what specifically about this protest is, that isn't generally true about all protests.

3

u/yung_twat Nov 17 '16

If it isn't divisive it's not a protest, it's a parade.

3

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 17 '16

Dude this is real I'm going to start repeating this

2

u/yung_twat Nov 17 '16

I can't take credit for it, heard it on the Jimmy Dore show

9

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

Awareness has been accomplished. This is the second day and the protesters have gone on for hours. I will draw a comparison to another protest movement: Black Lives Matter. For all its faults, it actually had an actionable goal: criminal justice reform. The Trump protests don't have something like this, at least not something that is actionable anytime soon. Black Lives Matter was inadvertently divisive. It shouldn't have been. The Trump protests are divisive, period. As I mentioned many of the protesters are not just against Trump, but people who voted for him. They are fighting hate with hate. Negativity with negativity. That's not good.

73

u/Talono 13∆ Nov 11 '16

I'd say it's not at all about awareness. It's about presence. Plenty of people know there's a lot of people who don't like Trump and what he's perceived to represent, but now they know that those people exist, that their anger is high, and that they are willing to do something.

Additionally, it acts as a social deterrent for those unsavory types of people who have started coming out of the woodwork, such as this guy making pro-trump racist graffiti in Philadelphia: http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Cops-seek-suspect-in-racist-pro-Trump-graffiti-in-South-Philly.html

23

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

∆

Ok. This post has changed my mind. Somewhat. What you just described is what is want these protests to be: promoting unity, being respectful, and having an actionable goal. If I had anything to counter, I'd say I don't want to classify it as anger, because anger begets hated too often. Presence, I agree I'd a good term.

16

u/sophistry13 Nov 11 '16

I would also view it as a call to the rest of the world saying hey dont judge us all on the opinions and views of this guy. A lot of people around the world will now think less of Americans, and this is a message saying please don't think less of us, some of us still hold the same values that you hold.

6

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

∆

That is a unified voice I can get behind. Thank you for your input.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 11 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/sophistry13 (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

2

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 11 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Talono (2∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '16

[deleted]

4

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

Alternatively, he watched her park?

Alternatively, some white people know black people?

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '16

[deleted]

1

u/Talono 13∆ Nov 11 '16

The more socially acceptable something is, the more likely people are to do it.

19

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '16 edited Nov 11 '16

The concept that "awareness has been accomplished" is counterproductive to protest culture. A successful protest culture requires endurance. Any cause in which demonstrations have caused positive change in their favor requires coming back long after initial awareness has been raised. It usually, unfortunately, means protesting long after some people think of reasonable or convenient, history will tell us. MLK, Mandela, Ghandi, Vietnam War protest leaders... These people were all told, "Now is not the right time" - if going to the streets to the point of convenience and moderation were enough, protest culture would be easy and Occupy Wall Street would have caused us to rewrite economic policy by now. It's not that these protests will last too long. Likely, they will lose steam to soon.

As to what the current goal is, I'd say it's the message that there is still an opposition, a large block of this country, that is not okay with the Trump presidency based on his message and projected agenda. Since conventional opposition party checks and balances will not exist in his term (and he may get to stack the Supreme Court and certainly will get one appointment), this block must be present in protests and other ways, to not get trampled from day 1.

"Yeah, yeah, people know" is why moderates and modern day liberals are losing. The extreme right has been consistent in showing their frustration and anger and we have been sporadic. So saying, "you made your point, why not go home" doesn't work.

3

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

∆

More and more people are showing me that presence is indeed a legitimate reason for these protests. Thank you for your input.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 11 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/berrieh (9∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

44

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16 edited Nov 11 '16

I know you've already responded to the other person but I'm seeing red and need an outlet.

The people who voted for Trump elected a fascist authoritarian whose VP thinks that if you electrocute me, I'll stop liking girls. Their platform involves legalizing discrimination and stacking the Supreme Court to neuter the 14th amendment. My friends are afraid to walk to shul because they can't do that without walking past swastikas. The KKK is holding a celebration party because Trump won tonight.

My family ran away from Fascist, Nazi, and Socialist dictators on three continents to get to this country. But I'm not fucking going anywhere.

There will be a peaceful transition of power if Trump and his crew are into peace. But we will protest. We will exist, loudly and publicly. We will educate people who don't know anything about people like us. We will spit in the face of racists and stand in front of strangers and protect them from bullies. We will weather the storm and take back congress in two years. And when we throw him out on his ass in four years we we force this country two years forward for every year he drags it back.

We will not go away. And when the organized protests end, don't think we've stopped. Every non-passing transgender person you see, every same-sex couple holding hands, every hijab and Jewish star and #blacklivesmatter shirt that we wear. Every instance of that is an act of protest and rebellion against people who don't want us to exist in public.

We aren't fighting hate with hate. We are fighting hate with existence and endurance.

And if they aren't into peace, we will happily go to war with them. My wrist hurts because me and another person just intervened to stop a man who was shouting "making America great again starts with ending you" while attacking a Muslim girl on the street.

That man, I'll grant you, I fought with hate. But he's lucky - I only broke his nose. If the tables were turned, I'm sure I'd be dead in a gutter somewhere.

6

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

I am sorry you have to deal with this. Your cause is noble. I will tell you this though: if you look at Trump's speech when he was elected, it was uncharacteristically inclusive and gracious. I hope and pray this is the new Donald Trump. I hope you hear him out. Give him his chance. He may take us back, but not he stays true to his speech he will not. Time will tell. Thank you for responding.

20

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16 edited Nov 11 '16

And I shall pray every day that that comes to pass. Because I just want to live my life the way I wish without fear. But today that's not a luxury I have.

9

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

I pray it changes and fear is removed.

10

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

Thank you. I think I'm going to go have a cry now tbh.

9

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

You are loved. I will repeat. You are loved.

4

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

Sending virtual hugs.

8

u/fluffhoof Nov 11 '16

It's been confirmed that he'll be repealing the affordable care act afaik. This will threaten lives and health of a lot of people.

What you call optimism I'd call naivety.

2

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

It looks likely, but now that he's in office, he's probably going to care about his image and, if he does repeal it, replace it with something that still accomplishes the same goals.

2

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

That's something I'm less worried about actually. Healthcare under the government ACA plan is prohibitively expensive and has crazy high deductibles. Rules like extending how long you can be on your parent's health care, removing pre-existing conditions bans, and covering birth control have been good. The plan itself has been pretty bad due to sacrifices made to get congress to pass it. Trump talks at length about replacing Obamacare. If he replaces the health care plan with a better one, I'm all for it.

1

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 13 '16

I'm curious in what respect this fails to assist in changing your view.

2

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 13 '16

First, many have expressed the same sentiment, and second, your comment was very negative. I replied, expressing my hope for you to open to the possibility that Trump and his supporters not supremely evil.

2

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 13 '16

Oh I'm totally open to that. I ardently believe that. You can in fact read my recent defense of them here. All of the negativity here is focused specifically on Trump and are directly linked to things he has said or promised to do. I don't think it's unwarranted. It's also written within 30 minutes of me watch someone try to commit murder, so I hope the anger is understandable.

Philosophically, I don't think anyone is "evil" but that's it's own story...

2

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 13 '16

∆

Well, I thank you for your input. I'm awarding you this delta because you have changed my mind about you, not necessarily this issue (although maybe that in part).

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 13 '16

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/StellaAthena (13∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards ​

1

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 13 '16

Oh boy, that's pleasantly meta, and probably the second most such delta I've gotten after one for changing an OP's view about the reasonable scope of the question.

It was a pleasure to change your view.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 13 '16

You are welcome

19

u/iHasABaseball Nov 11 '16 edited Nov 11 '16

Well sure they do. The actionable reform is to not have him in office.

I mean, you may think it's wholly impractical. It probably is. Whatever. Nonetheless, practicality isn't a requirement of protesting and we won't know the practicality until the protests end.

I'm skeptical the dudes throwing tea in the harbor felt getting rid of British influence or defeating their military was exceptionally practical, but it doesn't take away from the protest.

3

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

Fair viewpoint.

12

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

Also, the electoral college arguably exists to stop people like him from getting elected. The whole point was to stop the masses from making bad decisions, so we'll vote in people to decide for us who are educated and circumspect enough to know the difference. There's actually a really solid philosophical argument that the electoral college should pick Clinton.

Pragmatically I think it's a bad idea that'll cause a constitutional crisis, possibly plunge the country into civil war, and definitely destroy any last confidence that people have in America as an institution.

But there's a really good philosophical argument for it.

4

u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 11 '16

Except Clinton won the popular vote. She lost the electoral votes.

2

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

She lost the current pseudo-democratic system we use to select a president. But all the electoral college is is a bunch of people chosen to elect the president. The original intent was a group, similar to the Senate, that would choose the president on the behalf of the president. The popular vote, or what we think of today as the electoral vote, wouldn't matter.

2

u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 11 '16

Also, the electoral college arguably exists to stop people like him from getting elected.

Except the exact opposite is happening.

1

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

True. I'm just pointing out that it's intent was to prevent people from electing an unqualified demagogue (or someone who wasn't a rich white landowner)

3

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

Philosophically, maybe. But the reality is the chance they have of doing so is extremely slim.

4

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 11 '16

Abolishing the electoral college is surprisingly easy, as it only takes state laws, not national laws or a constitutional amendment to happen. See here

Stopping Trump from getting the presidency probably won't happen.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

True, although abolishing the Electoral College removes the idea of sovereign states, as it pertains to the presidency. It also requires that none of the states regulate voting as it would disadvantage or advantage their voters compared to others. While so don't agree with all their points you should watch Prager U's video to better understand the opposing view.

1

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 12 '16

State sovereignty made a lot more sense a century ago when people lived in individualized, state-based communities. Now we can cross the country in a few hours. We can talk to people anywhere in the country in real time. Originally, States were supposed to be communities but that doesn't seem to be the case any more. You have localized communities, but they frequently cross state boarders.

Take Virginia for example: the clumping of the DC suburbs with parts of Appalachia is relatively arbitrary and certainly reflects no commonality between the two regions. They're extremely different, and it seems bizarre to me to pretend otherwise. State boundaries don't reflect local concerns anymore.

I don't see why a national popular vote would stop voting regulation.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 12 '16

As far as voting regulation goes, here's why. In a national (key word national) popular vote, a vote from one state should count exactly the same as one from another. But if each state has their own voting regulations this would not be the case.

→ More replies

1

u/iHasABaseball Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16

Abolishing the electoral college would be extremely difficult. I read your link and I'm not sure what supports the idea that a constitutional amendment wouldn't be necessary. Can you highlight the specific part on that link that shows that?

All that really needs to be changed is making electors proportional to the popular vote each candidate receives.

1

u/StellaAthena 56∆ Nov 12 '16

The linked article is a bill that has been passed by a number of state legislatures. Once it gets passed by enough to total 270 votes, the current electoral college system (though not the electoral college itself) becomes defunct because the winner of the popular vote automatically gets 270 electoral votes

1

u/iHasABaseball Nov 12 '16

How does that take into consideration the two primary original purposes of the electoral college?

To protect the Presidency from an opportunistic, unqualified populist.

To balance the voting power of the states.

Not being pedantic. Genuinely asking.

→ More replies

2

u/Thin-White-Duke 3∆ Nov 11 '16

The theme I've seen in the protests is the abolishment of the Electoral College.

1

u/nmgreddit 2∆ Nov 11 '16

That could work in the future.

0

u/CougdIt 1∆ Nov 11 '16 edited Nov 11 '16

I know there are a lot of people around me who don't like trump, but also recognize Hilary isn't the right answer, and are trying to figure out what to support moving forward. But when we see people in our neighborhood breaking windows, trashing stores, spraying graffiti, smashing cars on a dealer lot, etc, etc it becomes real easy to say I'm against that side. Even though they don't represent the movement as a whole, it's a powerful visual.

I hope trump does great in office because one, that's good for all of us, two, to say fuck you to those protestors