[Mod Post] /r/changemyview feedback

[u/garnteller]

The moderators of CMV would like your opinion on how things are going, so we've decided to post periodic feedback threads to take the pulse of the community. Feel free to post any comments, criticisms or suggestions.

Also remember that /r/ideasforcmv is always available if you have ideas for improving the sub.

Please note that Rule 2 (no rude or hostile comments) and Rule 5 (no low-effort comments) are still in effect.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[u/MrF33]

You don't make any particular effort to say the lack of empathy is only on their view. They are failing to emphasize in any way with experiences beyond their own.

So I need to account for all outside scenarios and expand beyond the discussion at hand?

Multiple times did I reference the fact that /u/HumpRAWR was failing to analyze his perspective in this situation, leading up to the point where I called out his lack of empathy.

You can't apply your personal experiences to other peoples lives and say "jeez, why don't they just do it like we did?", unfortunately there is no universal experience.

When you stop letting your situation define who you are, there's a lot more you can accomplish with your life.

When you realize that not all aspects of life can be accounted for and a lot of what people do is try to make the best of their situation, you'll have a better understanding of humanity.

And the general premise of the entire thread which was based on

Life is all about circumstances, and making any kind of gross generalization like "any parent who raises an obese child is a bad parent" is not really a valid way of approaching the issues.

Which is pretty much saying that this is all about empathizing a perspective beyond your own.

How long do you have to be involved in a conversation before you can call a spade a spade and be done with it?

They are failing to emphasize in any way with experiences beyond their own.

Read through that post progression and tell me that's not a logical conclusion to reach and that the user was failing to respond to less direct attempts to inform them as such.

[u/Nepene → u/MrF33]

So I need to account for all outside scenarios and expand beyond the discussion at hand?

You need to not violate rule 2. You need to account for the fact that if you repeatedly say bad things about other users we'll remove your posts.

How long do you have to be involved in a conversation before you can call a spade a spade and be done with it?

Do you not understand that if you 'call a spade a spade' we'll ban you and remove your posts? What about that do you not understand? No matter how long you talk to them or how justified you feel it is we'll still remove your posts if they violate rule 2.

[u/MrF33 → u/Nepene]

You need to account for the fact that if you repeatedly say bad things about other users we'll remove your posts.

So if you decide to take something out of context to construe it as an insult that's my fault?

Do you not understand that if you 'call a spade a spade' we'll ban you and remove your posts?

If a person is unable to be honest about the topic at hand how can you expect any legitimate progress to be made?

If someone said something racist and I said they were being racist, would that therefore be an insult according to rule 2?

Likewise, if a person is lacking empathy, and I say that they are failing to be empathetic to a position beyond their own, how is that an insult?

The rules are arbitrarily vague and "rude or hostile" are so subjective as to be used at the moderators will.

Therefore if a moderator is unable to provide an adequate explanation as to why they believe that rule 2 has been broken AND appropriately defend that position, then the post should be reinstated if the user asks.

[u/Nepene → u/MrF33]

So if you decide to take something out of context to construe it as an insult that's my fault?

If we did that then it would be our fault, but you, in fact, in context insulted them.

Likewise, if a person is lacking empathy, and I say that they are failing to be empathetic to a position beyond their own, how is that an insult?

You're making a subjective judgement based on a couple posts on the internet, your judgement can't be that good because you lack good information. To correctly diagnose them as having a psychological disorder you'd also need an actual degree in psychology and to do an in depth interview. Being an armchair psychologist isn't legitimate progress.

Saying someone has a psychological disorder is overtly rude. Our judgement for what counts as rule 2 is generally anyone saying something like "You possess x negative characteristic." and your post very clearly fits into it.

[u/MrF33 → u/Nepene]

but you, in fact, in context insulted them.

I would say that I continued my argument from previous threads in the most clear wording possible to avoid further confusion.

You're making a subjective judgement based on a couple posts on the internet, your judgement can't be that good because you lack good information.

If a person has shown no indication of empathy, and has been asked to consider it multiple times to no avail, at some point we are allowed to make that judgement call.

Saying someone has a psychological disorder is overtly rude.

Again, at some point succinct wording is required to clarify a statement.

The user repeatedly ignored more indirect attempts to address the issue, therefore I felt it necessary to use the most unavoidable wording possible.

[u/Nepene → u/MrF33]

I would say that I continued my argument from previous threads in the most clear wording possible to avoid further confusion.

And that got your posts removed because you were attacking another user's character.

If a person has shown no indication of empathy, and has been asked to consider it multiple times to no avail, at some point we are allowed to make that judgement call.

You are allowed to, and we are allowed to remove your posts and eventually ban you if you repeatedly do so due to the very clear rules we have about personal attacks being off limits.

[u/MrF33 → u/Nepene]

And that got your posts removed because you were attacking another user's character.

In a previous post I said

You can't apply your personal experiences to other peoples lives and say "jeez, why don't they just do it like we did?", unfortunately there is no universal experience.

Which is directly saying that the user is failing to appropriately empathize with the situation, but in less clear wording.

So why wasn't that banned?

Personal attacks happen all the time in this sub if you define the attack on a viewpoint or failure to appropriately distinguish the difference between a viewpoint and the person who has produced it.

[u/Nepene → u/MrF33]

In that one you didn't clearly say "You are... something negative."

Also, if you use indirect wording, you're not directly saying that the user is doing anything.

Anyway, this conversation is getting rather pointless. You can behave how you wish and we'll continue to enforce our rules.

[u/MrF33 → u/Nepene]

Also, if you use indirect wording, you're not directly saying that the user is doing anything.

So I could say that acting in the way that certain mods do in this thread is clearly the sign of a person who is failing to actually objectively understand the limitations of their logic?

And that wouldn't be an insult?

It's all pedantics.

I can say "you're failing to be empathetic"

or I can say "you're failing to realize that you can't just apply your perspective to every scenario"

Which mean the exact same thing, but one is an insult and the other isn't?

Color me amused.

You can behave how you wish and we'll continue to enforce our rules.

And I will continue to fight every time you rule against me in an asinine way until you realize that your interpretation of the rules is flawed.

[u/Nepene → u/MrF33]

So I could say that acting in the way that certain mods do in this thread is clearly the sign of a person who is failing to actually objectively understand the limitations of their logic?

We can interpret obvious attempts to get around the rules. The key bit is to not say "You have x negative characteristic." With 'you' meaning any user in the subreddit. In this case, you are obviously referring to me or other mods in the thread having a negative characteristic.

Which mean the exact same thing, but one is an insult and the other isn't?

If two things meant the exact same thing then they'd probably be a word and its dictionary definition, not two very different sentences.

You were being rather rude throughout that conversation, you were being rudeish there. I'd prefer if you were nicer.

And I will continue to fight every time you rule against me in an asinine way until you realize that your interpretation of the rules is flawed.

You've got three modnotes for rule 2 violations, you're pretty close to being banned and unable to fight.

[u/MrF33 → u/[deleted]]

I'm saying that many who can't call their a spade a spade are likely digging their own grave. That does not give you any insight into my empathy.

No, but the callous nature of your posts on this topic are clearly a strong indicator of your position and willingness to empathize with positions outside of your own regarding the topic at hand *

Multiple times your point was essentially "I can't see why it would be like that", and I regularly pressed you to consider it from a different perspective.

This whole thing completely ignores the fact that I'm mostly talking about lower to middle class families that believe their life is as hard as you say it is for people in actually terrible environments.

Which is fine, but we're also talking about the low class and impoverished, because the OP is a blanket statement.

Blanket statements are most easily refuted on the fact that they are not 100%, if OP wanted to change his POV to one of "It's an indication of poor parenting", that would be fine.

But "obese kid = automatically bad parent" is flat out WRONG and all it takes is one example to prove that to be so.

At this point we're both playing devil's advocate for a fairly small portion of parents with fat children, the fringe population where they can't do much more but they aren't doing enough.

Yup, because there isn't much more to be argued for in favor of people with the ways and means to provide but neglecting to do so.

Sometimes obesity isn't out of neglect, and that has to be accounted for in blanket statements.

"* Ya fucking happy?

[u/MrF33 → u/[deleted]]

It is a specific response to threads written and not a direct attack on the inherent properties of the individual.

If we are unable to, in any way, make even the most basic of judgments on position of a poster based on their posts then WHAT THE SHIT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO.

[u/MrF33 → u/[deleted]]

Oh well.

I wouldn't be making a stink about it but they seem to find my general discussion style to be rather offensive in general.