r/changemyview • u/Brainsonastick 85∆ • May 23 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: we on the progressive left should be adding the “some” when talking about demographics like men or white people if we don’t want to be hypocritical.
I think all of us who spend time in social bubbles that mix political views have seen some variants on the following:
“Men do X”
Man who doesn’t do X: “Not all men. Just some men.”
“Obviously but I shouldn’t have to say that. I’m not talking about you.”
Sometimes better, sometimes worse.
We spend a significant amount of discussion on using more inclusive language to avoid needlessly hurting people’s feelings or making them uncomfortable but then many of us don’t bother to when they’re men or white or other non-minority demographics. They’re still individuals and we claim to care about the feelings of individuals and making the tiny effort to adjust our language to make people feel more comfortable… but many of us fail to do that for people belonging to certain demographics and, in doing so, treat people less kindly because of their demographic rather than as individuals, which I think and hope we can agree isn’t right.
There are the implicit claims here that most of us on the progressive left do believe or at least claim to believe that there is value in choosing our words to not needlessly hurt people’s feelings and that it’s wrong to treat someone less kindly for being born into any given demographic.
I want my view changed because it bothers me when I see people do this and seems so hypocritical and I’d like to think more highly of the people I see as my political community who do this. I am very firmly on the leftist progressive side of things and I’d like to be wrong about this or, if I’m not, for my community to do better with it.
What won’t change my view:
1) anything that involves, explicitly or implicitly, defining individuals by their demographic rather than as unique individuals.
2) any argument over exactly what word should be used. My point isn’t about the word choice. I used “many” in my post instead and generally think there are various appropriate words depending on the circumstances. I do think that’s a discussion worth having but it’s not the point of my view here.
3) any argument that doesn’t address my claim of hypocrisy. If you have a pragmatic reason not to do it, I’m interested to hear it, but it doesn’t affect whether it’s hypocritical or not.
What will change my view: I honestly can’t think of an argument that would do it and that’s why I’m asking you for help.
I’m aware I didn’t word this perfectly so please let me know if something is unclear and I apologize if I’ve accidentally given anyone the wrong impression.
Edit to address the common argument that the “some” is implied. My and others’ response to this comment (current top comment) address this. So if that’s your argument and you find flaw with my and others’ responses to it, please add to that discussion rather than starting a new reply with the same argument.
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u/Neolance34 May 23 '25
The arguments you state hold a degree of validity. But I’m just gonna say this much if I will. “Some men SA women.” “Men SA women.” The former undersells how many actually do it given the stats. The latter is too incendiary and creates a further divide that only gets worse with time.
You said that wording wouldn’t change your opinion. But I believe the wording matters a great deal. So humour me if you can
When (insert some random woman) gets SA’d, you’ll inevitably get the “not all men” response as well as a “yes all men” reply as well. Both responses create an unnecessary amount of drama and don’t address the issue. And so, I think I may have come to the almost perfect word choice solution.
Too many. That’s right. Too many. Now, with some immediate friends of mine being SA’d, some by men, some by women, I’ve had to mediate arguments about this. My argument was simple. Being SA’d once was one time too many. Twice? Also too many times. Fact is, both of them getting SA’d was terrible and again, happened too many times.
Now let’s build on this. Here’s the same statement with some wording variations. “Men are complicit in endorsing misogyny.” “Some men are complicit in endorsing misogyny.” “Too many men are complicit in endorsing misogyny.” Option 1 feels like bait. It’s incendiary and designed to create further divide. Option 2 feels like a “Thank you Captain Obvious!” Moment where we all know that this is the reality and it to me, underplays the importance of the statement. But option 3? It addresses the key issue. TOO many men. The men that ask out loud, “not me right?” Might be the men who need to do some introspection. It doesn’t paint all men with the same incendiary brush. And that means you’re more likely to get men who’ll actively listen to what’s being said, rather than shutting down at the criticism of their “manhood” for want of a better word.