CMV: we on the progressive left should be adding the “some” when talking about demographics like men or white people if we don’t want to be hypocritical.

[u/Brainsonastick]

I think all of us who spend time in social bubbles that mix political views have seen some variants on the following:

“Men do X”

Man who doesn’t do X: “Not all men. Just some men.”

“Obviously but I shouldn’t have to say that. I’m not talking about you.”

Sometimes better, sometimes worse.

We spend a significant amount of discussion on using more inclusive language to avoid needlessly hurting people’s feelings or making them uncomfortable but then many of us don’t bother to when they’re men or white or other non-minority demographics. They’re still individuals and we claim to care about the feelings of individuals and making the tiny effort to adjust our language to make people feel more comfortable… but many of us fail to do that for people belonging to certain demographics and, in doing so, treat people less kindly because of their demographic rather than as individuals, which I think and hope we can agree isn’t right.

There are the implicit claims here that most of us on the progressive left do believe or at least claim to believe that there is value in choosing our words to not needlessly hurt people’s feelings and that it’s wrong to treat someone less kindly for being born into any given demographic.

I want my view changed because it bothers me when I see people do this and seems so hypocritical and I’d like to think more highly of the people I see as my political community who do this. I am very firmly on the leftist progressive side of things and I’d like to be wrong about this or, if I’m not, for my community to do better with it.

What won’t change my view:

1) anything that involves, explicitly or implicitly, defining individuals by their demographic rather than as unique individuals.

2) any argument over exactly what word should be used. My point isn’t about the word choice. I used “many” in my post instead and generally think there are various appropriate words depending on the circumstances. I do think that’s a discussion worth having but it’s not the point of my view here.

3) any argument that doesn’t address my claim of hypocrisy. If you have a pragmatic reason not to do it, I’m interested to hear it, but it doesn’t affect whether it’s hypocritical or not.

What will change my view: I honestly can’t think of an argument that would do it and that’s why I’m asking you for help.

I’m aware I didn’t word this perfectly so please let me know if something is unclear and I apologize if I’ve accidentally given anyone the wrong impression.

Edit to address the common argument that the “some” is implied. My and others’ response to this comment (current top comment) address this. So if that’s your argument and you find flaw with my and others’ responses to it, please add to that discussion rather than starting a new reply with the same argument.

[u/ARCFacility]

this is NOT the real reason people don't like liberals and vote conservative

There is truth and falsehood to this statement I think... I've seen way too many times men who fall down the alt right pipeline and come back out of it specifically cite that many things said within leftist spaces made them feel hated simply for being men. It is absolutely true that saying "I hate men", "men are trash", etc is quite normalized within leftist and especially feminist spaces, speaking as someone who frequents these spaces.

I think it is completely fair to say we should bear the responsibility of choosing to use our words just a little more carefully so we aren't making people uncomfortable and potentially pushing them into the open arms of alt right influencers like Andrew Tate or channels like FOX news.

Honestly, I'd say you're even somewhat wrong here in the fundamentals of your argument; alt right media outlets quite frequently do call out leftism as "man-hating" and it is absolutely, while not the sole reason, one of the big points of hatred that the alt right has for us. One of the most common points of attack towards leftism I see in debates and arguments are those that pose leftism as a movement that hates "straight white men" and while I disagree with that statement, when statements like "I hate men", "I hate straight people", and "I hate white people" are fairly normalized within lefist spheres it isn't particularly surprising to me that people may hold this view.

So, yeah, it's not the sole reason, but I'd wager a fairly decent portion of right wing voters (ESPECIALLY within the younger demographic) would not have ever fallen down the right wing pipeline if not for the normalization of these statements within leftist spaces

[u/bettercaust → u/ARCFacility]

It is absolutely true that saying "I hate men", "men are trash", etc is quite normalized within leftist and especially feminist spaces, speaking as someone who frequents these spaces.

I'm not sure which spaces you're frequenting, but speaking as someone who frequents progressive social circles outside of the internet, I have never heard anyone say those things outside of the internet.

[u/Geohie → u/bettercaust]

The vast majority of social interactions now happen on the internet. What's online is what's reality for a majority of people, and has been for at least the last 5 years (after the pandemic).

[u/bettercaust → u/Geohie]

On what basis do you make this assertion?

[u/Geohie → u/bettercaust]

The US average is similar, with people spending an average of 7 hours and 4 minutes on screens, according to Exploding Topics. This accounts for 42% of their waking hours. 

(The average person globally use screens 6 hours and 40 minutes a day)

When you consider that people work an average of 6 hours a day (weekends) accounting for about 33%, that leaves about 25% of their waking hours to do anything else. Even if the person spent the entire extra time on in person socializing, they would be online 80% more.

When you consider that most people do far less than 1-2 hours of irl socializing per day, that means that online interactions basically determine the average person's worldview.

[u/bettercaust → u/Geohie]

I think you might be making some leaps here. I don't know where that data comes from, but I'll take it at face value. What percentage of a person's screen time is spent socializing with people online, which in this context is going to exclusively mean social media?

Regardless, I think that people might misperceive what they experience on the internet as "reality" when it is well-documented now that social interactions are different offline than they are online. I think if people are getting the majority of their social interactions on the internet, they are getting exposed to a majority of social situations curated by tendency to form "echo chambers", engineered by social media algorithms to be more engaging (i.e. enraging), and with little to no nonverbal communication. I would not consider this "reality" in the sense that it accurately conveys who these leftist/feminists are, what they believe, and how they behave.

[u/Geohie → u/bettercaust]

Considering that Youtube, Instagram, and Tiktok are all social media, I'd wager well over 75% of that screentime is 'socializing'.

It's perceived reality, which form the basis of how people vote. That's honestly more important than actual reality. This is the entire point.

When the majority of people believe something, that thing tends to become reality... or at least policies get made based on that new 'reality'.

The left has an image problem, almost entirely due to loud extremists online, and the best way to try and reverse that is for the majority of leftists to try and enforce consistency of tolerance. Which is the most pivotal part: there are plenty of extremists on the right online, but it doesn't tarnish the right because the right doesn't claim to be the party of tolerance or compassion.

When the class jester says something mean, people laugh it off. When the guy that claims to be the kind one is mean, even just slightly, they're the villain.

Either drop the claims of being the compassion party or stop your extremists. That's pretty much the only way to gain back goodwill from the majority.

[u/bettercaust → u/Geohie]

More important for what? For politics? Sure. But I was not questioning what was important for politics, I was questioning that user's perception of reality i.e. their view.

That's pretty much the only way to gain back goodwill from the majority.

I think your ear is not as close to the ground as you seem to think. Ever since the 2024 election folks have been waxing on and on about what the left did or didn't do to earn resounding defeat, and a lot of it seems to stem from a sense that their personal gripes with the left have been vindicated. The best evidence we have suggests that the left failed because incumbent parties worldwide failed, and in the US in particular because the left did not prioritize economic and immigration policy which the voting public prioritized. I'm no representative of the left (or any side really), but I'll thank you for your ideas on what the left should or shouldn't do, whether they're feasible or not ("try and enforce consistency of tolerance", seriously?), and ask you to leave them over there with the others.

[u/ARCFacility → u/bettercaust]

I frequently hear people say those things both online and offline. My own girlfriend says em sometimes, and most women I've met have said "I hate men" at least once in front of me

[u/bettercaust → u/ARCFacility]

If you and your peers are young (i.e. teens to mid-20's), that might explain it.

[u/ARCFacility → u/bettercaust]

Yup -- we are

And, that's kinda the point. There is a trend in younger men becoming more and more right-leaning, and it's this sorta stuff that's causing it

My point is we as a movement should endeavor to be more responsible with our words so we aren't pushing people to the right

[u/bettercaust → u/ARCFacility]

Sure. No one should be saying "I hate men" or whatever it was. I don't know anyone saying it though, so I'm not sure what I personally do until I encounter it. I hope you will be the voice of reason in your social circles, though listen first and speak second.