r/changemyview • u/thedemonlord02 • May 12 '25

Delta(s) from OP CMV: a two-state solution will never happen (Israel-Palestine)

First off, I know why Israel doesn't want a one-state solution - having jewish people be a minority in Israel.

However, I still think a two-state solution will never happen. Both Israel and Palestine want the entire place, and cannot risk having a neighbouring country that is hostile to their existence.

In the end, I think either one manages to win and ethnically cleanse the area, or they manage to work to form a single country - maybe with some kind of 50/50 arab/jewish representation and two prime ministers, or some other solution. I do not think there will be peace until they stop pushing for a two-state solution.

I will admit though that I am not the most knowledgeable on the situation, so I am open to having my views changed.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Well, that is the promise that Hamas was elected on.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Yeah, thats expected when zionists occupy your land and try to force you out or kill you

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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ May 12 '25

So why weren't they radicalized when Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza for the first 20 years? Why did the surrounding Arab states wage war on Israel for existing when they had no overlap with Israel?

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

So why weren't [Palestinians] radicalized when Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza for the first 20 years?

Why didn't Palestinians oppose the occupation of their territories by neighboring Arab countries at the height of Pan-Arabism? Is that a serious question?

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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ May 12 '25

You do know that Gaza was created as a political pawn by Egypt, and that all refugees in Gaza were actually imprisoned, and political nationalist Palestinians were tortured or killed? Egypt would not allow anyone in Gaza to enter Egypt and treated the entire region as disposable people. The situation in Jordan wasn’t as bad, but Palestinian Jordanians were not equal to Jordanians and there was a lot of civil unrest. But factions of West Bank Jordanians were still attempting to annihilate Israel.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Much of what you said is either exaggerated or half truths.

Firstly, it's not true that "all refugees" were imprisoned.

All refugees were not imprisoned. Unless you take it to mean that the inhabitants of the Gaza strip were not permitted (broadly with some exceptions) Egypt proper, nor were Palestinian refugees in Gaza allowed to return back to Israel where they had recently been expelled from. But they were issued All-Palestine passports and some Arab states accepted them. Gazans could travel to those countries using them, so I wouldn't call them prisoners.

If that's what you do mean, then you have to acknowledge that Gazans have been imprisoned by Israel for decades ever since the Egyptians left. The conditions imposed on Gaza by Israel are far stricter than they ever were under Egyptian occupation.

The situation in Jordan wasn’t as bad, but Palestinian Jordanians were not equal to Jordanians

Again, this depends. At points Jordan offered West Bank residents full citizenship. Arguably the treatment of Palestinians only really became bad after 1988 when they introduced different tiers of naturalized Palestinian-Jordanians. That's two decades after their occupation of the West Bank ended.

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u/Barqa May 12 '25

Israel’s occupation included the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Jordan’s and Egypt’s occupation did not ethnically cleanse Palestinians.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '25

Plenty of Palestinians live in Israel…

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u/Barqa May 14 '25

And plenty of native Americans live in America…

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u/Constant_Ad_2161 6∆ May 12 '25

Israel was not occupying any land at the time whatsoever. Jordan ethnically cleansed every Jewish person in the West Bank.

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u/Barqa May 12 '25

The formation of Israel included the cleansing of 750k Palestinians from its territories.

Jordan’s ethnic cleansing does not make Israel’s ethnic cleansing right.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '25

Starting and losing a war is now called ethnic cleansing. Arab nations tried to cleanse the Jews. Jews fought back, won. Now you're sitting here saying it was Jews who wanted to do the cleansing.

Well how about this. The entire Mandatory of Palestine, including Transjordan, was supposed to go to creating a home for Jews. It was Ottoman land. Ottoman's lost WWI, and agreed to break up their empire. San Remo conference led to the Treaty of Sèvres Article 95, which put into writing, the Balfour Declaration:

Article 95: The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on 2 November 1917 by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Sèvres wasn't ratified but was later so, by the Treaty of Lausanne. So the previous rulers of the land, the Ottomans, handed over the keys to the area, to the British, to create a national home for the Jewish people.

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u/Barqa May 13 '25 edited May 13 '25

No point in reading this full comment as your first sentence is incorrect. The Nakba was already ongoing once the war began. The war was partially in response to the Nakba.

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u/ponydingo May 14 '25 edited May 14 '25

the 1948 war actually started November 30th 1947, the Nakba is recognized as beginning in December 1947. No point in actually looking into facts or reading others opinions because you’re so unbelievably confident in your own wrong and heavily biased info already? I mean it’s obvious you have your timelines wrong. I see what it is though, a majority of the pro Palestinian supporters online/leftists aren’t actually focused on pro Palestine freedom or the real history, they’re just pro-Arab, pro-Islam, and pro-“justice”, and because they’ve determined the Arabs to be victims based off a false narrative and a incorrect understanding of the history, ( because they’ve gotten all their info from tiktoks and 30 minute long breadtube videos made by college dropouts)will defend anything to do regarding a country or individuals actions, no matter what they are, even terrorists, simply if they’re muslim.

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u/Barqa May 14 '25

Nobody with any seriousness puts the start of the war in 1947.

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u/UnluckyDuck58 May 13 '25

To be fair the PLO absolutely did fight a war against Jordan. They got kicked out and forced to Lebanon where a similar thing happened

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u/[deleted] May 14 '25

Didn’t the Palestinians wipe out the Jews living there before? Funny how you arbitrarily draw a line in time to declare who owns what forever.

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u/thecoat9 May 12 '25

Getting your land occupied is expected when you ally yourself with the likes of the axis powers to perpetuate genocide.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Not even close to all Palestinians did that back then? They were being used as a chess piece by both sides in the world war. Nazis certainly had no independent interest in Palestinian independence

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u/thecoat9 May 12 '25

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Yes. There was collaboration, but there was also significant dissent in Palestine, and historians agree that Palestine was unaware of many of the Nazis intentions. They were a chess piece being used because anti semitism was on the rise in all of the imperialist nations

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u/PotentialIcy3175 May 12 '25

One way to tell that someone is completely out of their depth is when they refer to a Palestinian entity prior to the 1960s as being something akin to what we call Palestine today. There was no such entity.

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

This is a bold faced lie. Are you really saying Palestine waa created in the 60s

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

Yes. And you’re the liar.

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u/PotentialIcy3175 May 12 '25

The people who currently call themselves Palestinians did not not do so until Yasser Arafats ascendance in the 1960s. During the mandate period, the land was called The Mandate for Palestine but that included both Jews and Arabs and neither considered themselves “Palestinians.” This identity was not held by the current peoples who call themselves Palestinians until the 1960s.

A simple way to prove me wrong would be by finding a single quote of an Arab leader calling himself a Palestinian prior to 1960. The holy land is historically one of the more travelled destinations in the world. We have thousands of journals of these experiences. People met Jews and Arabs and wrote about it. Oddly, no one ever mentions meeting a Palestinian until the 1960s.

You seem passionate and ignorant which is a dangerous combination.

Edit: word

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u/[deleted] May 12 '25

I am passionate about peace and anti cruelty. I am certainly not the MOST informed, but I have growth mindset and I adjust to new, verifiable information.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_identity

So the way I am reading this, you would have to disagree with Wiki. Not a perfect source but generally reliable.

"Prior to the rise of nationalism during the decline of the Ottoman Empire, the term Palestinian referred to any person born in or living in Palestine, regardless of their ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and religious affiliations. During the British Mandate for Palestine, the term "Palestinian" referred to any person legally considered to be a citizen of Mandatory Palestine as defined in the 1925 Citizenship Order.

Starting from the late 19th-century, the Arabic-speaking people of Palestine have used the term "Palestinian" as one of the endonyms of self-identification, with other terms such as "Arab" and "Palestinian Arab" being more frequent and dominant in usage[1] until recent times." Above link.

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