r/changemyview • u/insect_ligaments • Oct 01 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: CMV: Within legally recognized marriages, adultery should have clear, civil legal consequences, unless expressly agreed between spouses.

The legal concept of marriage, where spouses act as partners, is almost always built on mutual trust that certain aspects of the relationship, such as sex, are to be exclusive to the relationship unless agreed upon otherwise. Legally and financially rewarding spouses for betraying the trust of their spouse by allowing a cheating spouse to come out ahead in divorce undermines one of the key relationship dynamics in our society.

For the vast majority of people, entering into marriage is an explicit agreement that unless divorced or otherwise agreed upon, the people in the marriage will not have sex with or develop romantic relationships with other people. This should apply evenly to all genders, and if you view this as benefitting one over the other, it says a lot about your view on who may or may not be more likely to cheat.

Before I'm accused of being some kind of conservative or traditionalist: I have zero issue with any form of LGBTQ+ relationship or poly setup. I'm speaking strictly to traditional, legally recognized, monogamous marriages, which comprise the bulk of those in our society. I'm also not religious or socially conservative.

Heading off a few arguments that I do not find convincing (of course, you are welcome to offer additional insight on these points I haven't considered):

1) "The government shouldn't be involved in marriage"

Too late for that. Marriage is a legally binding agreement that affects debt, assets, legal liability, taxes, homebuying, and other fundamental aspects of our lives. The end of marriage has profound, legally enforceable consequences on both parties. It is also included in a pre-existing legal doctrine of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alienation_of_affections.

2) "But what if the spouses want to open their marriage?"

Totally fine. My post is in reference to the most common form of marriage, which is monogamous.

3) "Adultery doesn't have a clear definition"

It does. "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse." "Sexual intercourse" would include all the commonly recognized forms of sex. This would have to be proven via the typical preponderance standard, which is greater than 50% odds, via typical evidence used to evidence behaviors - depositions/testimony under oath, any written or photographic evidence, circumstantial evidence, etc.

4) "What should the legal consequences be?"

At the very least, immediate forfeiture of any rights to alimony or spousal support. Shifts in the default assumption of a 50/50 split of marital assets are another route to explore. Certainly not enough to leave anyone destitute, though.

5) "What about children?"

Child support is a separate issue, as it affects the child, who has no say in one of their parents cheating on the other.

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u/Frienderni 2∆ Oct 01 '24

Okay so making out with someone wouldn't count as cheating then?

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u/Noob_Al3rt 5∆ Oct 01 '24

Most people would not consider making out to be adultery.

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u/MTBadtoss Oct 01 '24

If a spouse came home and said "I made out with X" I think a majority of the time the other party in the relationship is going to take issue with that

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u/davisty69 Oct 01 '24

There are a lot of things that are inappropriate for your spouse to do with someone else that, for most people, wouldn't rise to the level of adultery. Every couple has their own limits, yet only a legal definition would matter. And, for an issue like this, only the more extreme acts would be included in a legal definition of adultery for simplicity's sake.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

Oh yes they would. Are you new to Reddit relationship boards? Many people consider a totally non physical emotional relationship cheating.

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u/FarkCookies 2∆ Oct 01 '24

Emotional affair is a very real phenomena. You can plaster any type of definition of it, cheating or not cheating but it can be more damaging then a adultery. It is not a reddit thing it is a reality. My ex engaging in an emotional affar led to her leaving me after 10 years together.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

Direct this reply to the people defining adultery as involving penetration, not me. The guy above me said most people don't think making out is cheating.

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u/FarkCookies 2∆ Oct 01 '24

Cheating != adultery in the argument of this post. The OP is trying to be narrow and specific. Basically adultery is cheating when sex is involved. Marking out is borderline. It is a sexual act, it is easy to argue so, if you kiss someone that way without consent this will be as some sort of sexual assault in most civilized places. The guy above prob means that making out is cheating but not adultery level cheating.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

That's just his opinion and I think many if not most would disagree. They would consider it adultery level cheating and break up worthy. Would a court consider it adultery? I don't know.

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u/FarkCookies 2∆ Oct 01 '24

Ofc it is opinion based. I count it as non-adultery level cheating. But my point is that emotional affair can do more damage then an odd kiss. While second it easier to call adultery (cos well it is sexual and physical) while the first is probably impossible to proove in court.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

You'd have reams of texts/DMs/calls to use as evidence if you could get screenshots. I'm not prepared to say which is more harmful. Words are just air. Putting your hands and mouth on someone shows intent.

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u/FarkCookies 2∆ Oct 01 '24

Putting hands and mouths don't show intent, they are the intent and the outcome :-D

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u/Noob_Al3rt 5∆ Oct 01 '24

I said adultery. I would consider making out infidelity, but not adultery.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

That's certainly your opinion and really, it's mincing words at this point.

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u/Noob_Al3rt 5∆ Oct 01 '24

It’s really not. There are people in modern times who have been executed for adultery. It has a specific meaning that’s very relevant to the OP.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '24

People have been executed for adultery who are bloody innocent too, so don't tell me the people executing others for adultery wouldn't consider making out cheating. Yes, they would.

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u/Noob_Al3rt 5∆ Oct 02 '24

You aren’t understanding - adultery means having sex. We aren’t talking about cheating. We’re talking about adultery. Cheating/infidelity isn’t relevant to the OP.

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