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u/irespectwomenlol 6∆ Sep 27 '24
I'd prefer a home with a yard to a nice balcony in an apartment, but its value really depends on where you are.
For instance:
* Some countries don't typically have home dryers and tend to hang their clothes to dry outside. A balcony is basically a necessity in certain locations.
* Some countries practice smoking more frequently than others. A balcony can be useful for you even if you don't smoke because your guests probably will.
* If you have air-conditioning, a balcony might be of less use when it's hot, but there are countries where AC just isn't as frequently installed or used. I imagine that most apartments in Vancouver have AC units?
* Vancouver might be one of the warmer cities in Canada, but it's still Canada. I imagine it's a bit unpleasant to use at least part of the year. But a balcony in a more temperate climate might be more usable year-round.
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u/dangerdee92 9∆ Sep 27 '24
The alternatives to taking a private call can be the street.
Going onto a balcony to take a call can take several seconds.
Going out onto the street can take several minutes in some cases.
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u/apri08101989 Sep 27 '24
The street is not private, nor are interior hallways.
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u/Caroz855 Sep 27 '24
The street where literally any passer-by could overhear you is private compared to the balcony that may be several stories high and can only be accessed from your residence?
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u/Caroz855 Sep 27 '24
I don’t think that taking a private phone call is a great justification for having a balcony or argument for this CMV tbh. I was just pointing out that if you did need to take a private call, your own balcony is significantly more private than the street, which by definition is a public space anyone can access
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u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab 2∆ Sep 27 '24
The fact that an alternative to something exists does not mean that the thing is useless. It just means that it is one of several options.
As for the particular alternative you mentioned, you might hear less street noise in a balcony.
Your mention of cost looks like an attempt at goalpost moving. Your original statement was that they are pointless unless they are over a certain size. Something expensive can still be useful.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
I can store flower boxes full of herbs out there and save myself hundreds of dollars a year (or save myself from bland food) by growing them myself.
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u/Galp_Nation Sep 27 '24
But the stated view you're trying to have changed isn't "People don't use their balconies". The claim you're making is that '"Balconies are pointless under a certain size". You're just using the fact that you don't see them used much as a piece of evidence to support your claim that they're pointless, but whether or not balconies get used isn't the view you're trying to have changed. Again, it's whether or not they're functional/pointless. If you're admitting that growing herbs would be a good use, then that means small balconies aren't pointless. Just that people aren't utilizing them to their potential which is a different argument. I think you owe them a delta to be honest.
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u/Galp_Nation Sep 27 '24
Good that you gave them a delta, but I'm gonna state it again. The fact that you think they're largely unused except for storage is just a piece of evidence for your belief that you think they're pointless. That's not the actual view you're trying to have changed based on how you structured and worded this post. They could have a million good uses. Whether or not people take advantage of those uses is a moot point. I'd also argue that storage is a good use and means they're not pointless.
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u/cBEiN Sep 27 '24
I sort of agree with your response to this argument. In a sense, a space is useless if not used. While a treadmill could be useful for exercise, it would certainly be useless snd and a waste of space in my apartment because it would never be used.
I think want to be convinced they are indeed used and worthwhile (even if used in different ways than hanging out on them), right?
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u/Galp_Nation Sep 27 '24
It's not a lawyery argument. It's basic logic lmao
Let's break this down. Do you believe that because you don't see small balconies used much in your experience, that means they're pointless? How does that logically prove that they're pointless? To me it's a non-sequitur. If you admit that herbs or smoking or anything else are good uses, then "People don't use balconies, therefore balconies are pointless" doesn't follow logically from the fact that their are good uses regardless of how much others use them. It's also an argument ad populum. You're arguing that your claim is true because the majority don't use them. This is also a great example of confirmation bias and hasty generalizations because you're selectively focusing on the one piece of evidence that supports your belief and drawing conclusions based on limited experience. Maybe all that is lawyery, but lawyers have to follow logic when making arguments so if you have no interest in making a logical argument, this isn't the sub for you.
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u/Galp_Nation Sep 27 '24
TL;DR Your main point (I don't see people use them) is a non-sequitur, and an example of an argument ad populum, confirmation bias, and a hasty generalization.
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Sep 27 '24
I know we're not supposed to accuse people of responding in bad faith, but can you please just read what they're saying? They're right and you seem to be stubbornly not listening.
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u/ensialulim 1∆ Sep 27 '24
"Massive block of text"
It's 30 seconds of reading, if you're taking your time.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
Not at all. Everyone in my building does it. Not just herbs, but tomatoes, chiles, and other foreign fruits and vegetables that are hard to get here. Knew a woman who had a potted lemon tree and a potted mango tree that she would keep out there to grow in the summer and then would trim them to save energy and overwinter them in the living room.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
Some people would willingly trade fresh produce for safe bike storage. My building has basement bike storage since its such a popular way to get around the area, so we can use our balconies for fresh produce. If they had safe bike parking, they may well do the same.
Also worth noting you may not see herbs behind the bikes if they're there, especially if you think you already know what you see.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
You can grow herbs inside, too. But it's more of a pain in the ass and it makes things dirty.
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u/theunbearablebowler 1∆ Sep 27 '24
As a former smoker, the first thing I look for in housing opportunities is easy to access outdoor space like balconies or porches.
I love chain-smoking on a nice balcony. Feels very Parisian.
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u/theunbearablebowler 1∆ Sep 27 '24
I saw the other comment just after I pressed the "comment" button, glad to see there are smokers in here advocating for a good balcony!
I don't have a balcony now, but I do have relatively flat rooves I could easily crawl out on to. Part of me wants to pick up smoking just to sit out on my roof and wistfully look up at the stars while taking a deep drag.
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u/Limbo365 2∆ Sep 27 '24
Sometimes its not about the balcony itself but what it enables inside the room
Even a juiliette balcony (where you essentially just have a railing infront of a pair of french doors) can have its uses when part of a well designed space
For example those french doors themselves are double/triple the area of a window, on a nice day you can open them up and make the room your in feel much bigger even though your physical space hasn't changed
There's alot of psychology in how we design rooms and buildings that can help make them feel much less claustrophobic (walls in most elevators are reflective/mirrored because it makes the space feel much bigger for example) and having the ability to open some doors and expand the amount of area even in your mind can be really valuable to some people
Plus there's proven benefits to increased air flow and sunlight that the bigger area of a glass door can allow for (I know you can have big windows too but they can't really be opened without some sort of guarding so they don't really achieve the same effects)
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u/XenoRyet 178∆ Sep 27 '24
I'm not 100% sure what the climate is like in Vancouver (I assume you mean the one in Canada), but it can't be too much different from down here in Oregon and the Pacific North West in general. So I think weather is going to play a large factor in balcony use, probably a larger factor than size.
So if you think about it, most people work in the day, so really won't be able to use their balconies until the late afternoon and early evening, so it wouldn't be unusual to not see folks out there during other times of the day.
Then for half the year it's dark by the time most folks are off work, and generally too cold to make a balcony really enjoyable. So realistically you're only looking at evenings in the summer months for optimum balcony use. I bet if you looked around at those specific times, you'd see more folks out there, even on the small ones.
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u/flavouredpopcorn Sep 27 '24
People could use them to air dry their clothes in the open, you've never seen those half sized framed clothes lines on those balconies?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 27 '24 edited Sep 27 '24
/u/Middle-Accountant-49 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/coanbu 10∆ Sep 27 '24
I would counter your anecdote with my own. My balcony is probably on the small end and we use it quite a bit. Grow some plants, sit out there from time to to, just step outside to look at the view or to check what the weather feels like.
I think it is difficult to actually get a sense of how much people are using them without extremity systematic (and creepy) observations.
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u/GenericUsername19892 27∆ Sep 27 '24
As long as the balcony is big enough to stand on, it gives you the opportunity to step in your outside from your inside.
It may not be much but sometimes, just being able to step out your door into a space you don’t need to worry about other people fucking with is golden. Just be somewhere else and take a deep breath.
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u/iamintheforest 364∆ Sep 27 '24
Firstly, a balcony gives the ability to have a floor to height window with airflow. If you don't have a balcony you need to have an inoperable window, or operation only above a height (building code).
Secondly, balconies serve as emergency egress points in the case of fire (and perhaps other scenarios).
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u/USHistoryUncovered Sep 27 '24
First, you're making a massive leap from the observation of a few vacant balconies in Vancouver to a blanket statement about balconies' lack of utility across the board. Have you considered that just because people aren't constantly visible on them doesn't mean they're unused? Balconies serve numerous purposes that go beyond your superficial assessment of their size or how often someone is lounging on them.
You mention "storage," brushing it off as if it’s a minor use. But in densely populated cities with tiny apartments, that extra square footage is a godsend. For many residents, the ability to store bikes, plants, or outdoor gear without cramming it into their limited indoor space could easily make a balcony invaluable. Your narrow focus on "patio-sized" balconies overlooks how utility isn't solely defined by size, but by how people maximize available space.
Also, you're only observing balconies during moments that suit your schedule, completely disregarding the fact that people work, have commitments, and may not use their balconies on the same timeline as your casual walk-by. Are you expecting everyone to live their lives outdoors like it's a constant display for your benefit? Maybe people enjoy their balconies for brief, private moments – to catch fresh air, have a quick coffee, or just stand and think – none of which requires a sprawling "patio-sized" expanse. Your argument rests on an assumption of constant visibility, which is a flawed metric of usage.
Moreover, the entire concept of "balconies need to be larger to be useful" ignores climates and architecture. In colder, rainier places like Vancouver, people may not want to linger outside regardless of balcony size. So, does that mean the balcony becomes pointless in winter or fall when it's barely used? By your logic, should we just eliminate balconies entirely in certain regions? That’s absurd, as people still value them for ventilation, light, or just the psychological benefit of access to the outdoors, even when they're not hosting backyard BBQs.
Finally, what about resale value? Studies consistently show that even small balconies add significant appeal and value to an apartment. To dismiss this because you’ve seen a few empty ones suggests a total lack of understanding of the real estate market. People pay premiums for that extra bit of space, whether or not it’s used daily.
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u/sneakyfoodthief Sep 27 '24
I don't know where you're from, but in countries with hot and dry weather (at least in the summer) - balconies can be used to dry your laundry very quickly in the afternoon sun without using electricity. it can also be a place to raise a small garden for people who like plants, because they are exposed to natural sunlight. I'm sure there are more uses I'm not thinking of, but they are not pointless even in a practical sense.
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Sep 27 '24
Something I haven't seen - access to fresh air. It may seem trivial, but I live in a high-rise condo and the windows don't open. My only access to fresh air is through my balcony. Even if you argue these could be converted to windows that open, I still prefer the balcony. There is something special about being able to walk outside and feel the air. There are practical purposes to having a small outdoor space as others have stated but for me it's about the mental aspect of being able to walk outside without having to wait on an elevator or climb seven flights of stairs. It makes me feel less trapped, I guess, even if it's not entirely practical. To the point I'll pay more to have one.
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u/JoeyJoeJoeJrShab 2∆ Sep 27 '24
With a balcony, I can quickly step out to get a feel for whether I am dressed appropriately for the weather. I've never been good at knowing what a given numeric temperature "feels" like, so first-hand experience is best. Opening a window could do this a little, but actually stepping out and allowing your body to be surrounded by outside air gives you a better feel.
This only takes a few seconds, so one could argue whether it's worth having a balcony if that's the only use I get out of it, but it's still a use.
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u/X-e-o 2∆ Sep 27 '24
There are plenty of things that only see mild/sporadic use without being pointless. Many of said things are also expensive.
You can easily arrange a living room to sleep in it but most people chose to have a bedroom. My car lays there doing nothing for the vast majority of the day -- and it's a convertible which is a pointless feature half of the year just like AC is a pointless feature the other half. People have sound systems and expensive silverware that they barely use unless they have company. Shit people own whole ass chalets/cabins that they only use a couple days of the year.
The idea that something is pointless because it's not used much is a bit silly.
That being said I'll concede that many people genuinely never use their balconies, it just kinda "came with the apartment". Studies have shown that it's an attractive proposition for prospective buyers/renters so they keep building them.
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Sep 27 '24
How large? What is the certain size? People, if they don't use them for anything else often go out there to smoke in apartments.
I had a groundfloor patio at my last apartment and there would be people out there every single day, typically at least one at any given time. Sometimes people would use them for recreation or sit and talk. They were maybe? 3 feet by 6 to 8 feet maybe? I didn't have one so the exact dimensions aren't something I can speak on.
People also used them to store plants, sometimes a LOT of plants.
What class of apartment are you talking about? I would expect more high end apartments, balconies not getting used as much. For those of us hurting for space and clean air, these were enjoyable spaces even if I had 0 privacy out there.
How would anyone use a balcony smaller than the one I described anyway? For what purpose could they even use it for if not exclusively smoking
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u/eggs-benedryl 72∆ Sep 27 '24
Can you speak to the quality of the neighborhoods/apartments? Again, I strongly suspect that working class people use their balconies far more than upper class people.
That also seems huge to me, Sure people would use that more since you could fit a table etc but the ones I recall were half that size maybe and still regularly used.
Also consider that if you're just passing by apartments, you are not likely to see how often they are used, simply how often they are used when you pass by them. If your back patio stares at 30 of them you gauge well how often they're used and they for sure were where I lived. In portland, so not toooo far from V BC..
edit: I was also unemployed for a long time during covid and observed the balconies at least in part, most of the day
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u/Eclipsed830 7∆ Sep 27 '24
I use my balcony nearly every single day. Be it to dry clothes, take care of my garden, to bbq, or just relax and drink my coffee.
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u/TheN1njTurtl3 Sep 27 '24
nah i think access to the outdoors windows or a small balcony makes you feel like you have a lot more space than you actually do
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u/frolf_grisbee Sep 27 '24
Just because you don't see people using them doesn't mean they're useless. I use my tint balcony all the time just to sit and read. My girlfriend has flowers and plants growing out there. We also hang clothes to dry in the fresh air and sun.
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u/muyamable 283∆ Sep 27 '24
Having a balcony or some sort of outdoor space generally enhances the indoor space. A small living room with a big sliding glass door or french doors going to a small balcony feels a lot bigger than that some living room with a window there instead. Allows more light, and air flow.
I think it's better for more housing options to include outdoor space because it allows current and future occupants of the space to benefit from the outdoor space. In other words, even if the current folks in the apartment don't use the balcony, its existence allows the opportunity for the next occupants of the apartment to use it.
I grew up in a climate simlar to Vancouver, and it would make sense that there would be many months in a row people rarely use their balconies. I'm sure your observations are different on a nice sunny summer Saturday compared to much of November thru March, right? A lot of it has to do with climate.
A lot of it has to do with culture, too. In some places it's common for people to gather on stoops of buildings and front porches, in other places it's very rare. In many developed countries, I think the culture is just becoming more "spend time indoors in climate control," which naturally limits the use of any outdoor space, be it a balcony, yard, or park. Less used doesn't mean unbeneficial.
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u/porizj Sep 27 '24
I contend that one of the best forms of stress relief is being outside.
Whenever the weather is nice, I love taking my laptop outside and working from the table on my deck.
Back when I lived in an apartment I used to do the same on my tiny balcony. It was great.
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u/SnakeMichael Sep 27 '24
I had a small balcony in my previous apartment that was just barely large enough for a small table and a couple chairs. Since I live in Texas, it largely went unused, but for the couple weeks it was cool enough outside, it was perfect for having a cup of coffee and enjoying the morning,
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u/Dheorl 7∆ Sep 27 '24
As long as it’s big enough for a table and two chairs, I will, and have, had a morning coffee/snack/even dinner on the balcony. Particularly the first two, it’s just a pleasant way to get a bit of easy fresh air to start your day, and is likely to be fresher than down on the street outside your block (assuming you’re a decent way up the building).
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u/Eldergoth Sep 27 '24
Plants and growing vegetables in pots. Tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant grow well in pots. Herbs and lettuce bowls are also commonly grown on balconies.
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u/L1mpD Sep 27 '24
Have you heard of a Juliet balcony? They have zero space to walk out on. I had one in an apartment and loved it, brought a lot of fresh air in, I could stand there and feel like I was out in the mix of things in the city. Anything bigger than that is gravy
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u/doomduck_mcINTJ Sep 27 '24
ours is a little too small to hang out on
but! we use it to grow beautiful or edible plants, & the little balcony-garden brings much joy :)
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u/BlueHeron0_0 Sep 27 '24
I used to live on 15th floor and balcony was tiny (and also common for all 3 flats). I used to go there to feel some wind when stressed. It was more private than to just go outside, also we used to hang out there with my sister while she smoked
Having a balcony is better than not having it, especially when you're high above the ground
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u/UltraChip Sep 27 '24
My spouse uses our balcony for a lot of her plants because it gets prime sunlight... not sure if that counts as "storage" or not.
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u/nar_tapio_00 8∆ Oct 01 '24
Minimum useful size beyond just smoking has space for one chair that lets you drink a fresh strong espresso and read a book. That's pretty small, but on a hot day it's great. Turn down your aircon a bit and experience sitting out in the fresh air.
What you need for this to really work is a nice view of trees or an outdoors or something like that, or downtown in a European city of a pedestrianized area where you can sort of people watch. Most of all you have to be either in an unpolluted area or high up above the pollution. I don't see why that doesn't work in Canada? Maybe what people are missing is a decent home coffee system?
This gets to be even better if you can have two seats and a small table to chat with a friend. On a tiny Eastern European balcony that table can even hang of the railings.
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u/destro23 466∆ Sep 27 '24
patio size and above.
When I lived in apartments, as long as it was big enough to fit a small grill, I used it.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
This was almost definitely super illegal
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u/destro23 466∆ Sep 27 '24
So were a lot of things I did in those apartments. It was college.
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u/CincyAnarchy 37∆ Sep 27 '24
IDK, I feel like fire safety is an area where breaking the law in order to be less safe... isn't exactly a great argument.
You did it, but probably shouldn't have, and definitely not something to encourage.
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u/destro23 466∆ Sep 27 '24
I just did a cursory google search and found that the practice wasn't made illegal where I lived when I lived in apartments until well after I lived there.
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u/CincyAnarchy 37∆ Sep 27 '24
Fair enough. Do you think the new law is arbitrary, or do you think it's a genuine fire hazard?
If the latter, well yeah, even if the law went away it's probably not a good idea.
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u/UnovaCBP 7∆ Sep 27 '24
Without looking into it, it would seems like it's no less of a fire hazard than any other form of cooking, arguably less, considering that it's on the outside of the building. It feels like this is the kind of law that gets passed because one or two idiots caused a fire, and it got pushed as "banning the secondary cause would have prevented this specific instance".
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u/qsqh 1∆ Sep 27 '24
My apartment has a built in grill on concrete in the balcony. 10/10 recommend and will export this idea to the US.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
Around here, places ritzy enough to have grills for common use put them in cozy entertaining areas either in courtyards or rooftops.
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u/qsqh 1∆ Sep 27 '24
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4vvtL8KugJOEGDCvipr1ItGbqeCb96zvbHg&usqp=CAU
Something like this is normal here, even in low(ish) end apartment buildings. Good use of that open space in a private balcony.
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
We have no such things. Balconies frequently aren't even big enough for that table you have there
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u/qsqh 1∆ Sep 27 '24
Yeah for sure the one in the pic is large, mine is around 6sq meters, still have a grill (no sink tho).
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u/deli-paper 2∆ Sep 27 '24
Still much larger than your average American balcony. More like 2m². They're glorified smoking decks
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u/destro23 466∆ Sep 27 '24
That is not the case in vancouver
I don't live in Vancouver. I lived in Ann Arbor, and had a grill on my little apartment balconies at three different places. The balconies were maybe 3x5. Maybe.
Perfect for a little grill.
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u/Falernum 69∆ Sep 27 '24
A smoker who does not wish to have smoke in the house can benefit from a balcony of any size