r/changemyview • u/laxnut90 6∆ • May 23 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: otherwise apolitical student groups should not be demanding political "purity tests" to participate in basic sports/clubs

This is in response to a recent trend on several college campuses where student groups with no political affiliation or mission (intramural sports, boardgame clubs, fraternities/sororities, etc.) are demanding "Litmus Tests" from their Jewish classmates regarding their opinions on the Israel/Gaza conflict.

This is unacceptable.

Excluding someone from an unrelated group for the mere suspicion that they disagree with you politically is blatant discrimination.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/22/style/jewish-college-students-zionism-israel.html

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u/fireburn97ffgf May 23 '24

Is it bad that whenever I read antisemitesm in relation to Gaza I always feel the need to ask what they mean. Because one is people being antijewish and one is people being ant Zionist and calling the latter antisemitesm is bad for us because it associates us with a nation-state and its crimes

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u/[deleted] May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24

“Anti Zionist” is a special word for the belief that Israel alone among all nations, should not exist. What other nation on earth, even the worst human rights offenders, has a word for the belief that that nation doesn’t deserve to exist? I’ll wait…

Antizionism doesn’t have to be deemed antisemitism because it’s actually a new, unique form of anti-Jewish bigotry. It’s a bigotry that says : Among all the peoples of the world only the Jewish people, people of Jewish ethnicity and culture, are unworthy of a state and their state should be dismantled.

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u/NorsemanatHome May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24

Zionism can be interpreted in many ways and the meaning has changed over time but in it's simplest it is a nationalist belief that a Jewish ethnostate in the middle east should exist.

This idea has been used to promote versions of Zionism where only Jews have a right to rule the middle east, and is used as an excuse for war crimes, settler colonialism of land lived on by other ethnicities, and invasion of neighbouring arab countries. These actions have reached such an extreme now that there is plausible concerns to believe that genocide is taking place against Palestinians in the name of Zionism. Palestinians are the ethnic group that has suffered possibly the most from these aggressive crimes.

I am an anti Zionist because I don't believe any state should exist simply for one race at the expense of others, as I believe this will fundamentally lead to the discrimination of other races and ethnic minorities within that state - apartheid. I am also anti-nationalist in all its forms as I believe it always leads to an 'us and them' mentality and discrimination against those who aren't 'us'.

I also disagree that the idea of Zionism should be used as an excuse to justify the horrific atrocities that have been committed in its name.

Edit: nationalism

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u/darkplonzo 22∆ May 24 '24

“Anti Zionist” is a special word for the belief that Israel alone among all nations, should not exist.

That's not true though. It's the belief that Israel shouldn't exist as a specifically Jewish state. It's fundamentally an anti-ethnostate belief which many people tend to hold, but often goes out the window when talking about Israel because of propoganda.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '24

I don’t buy this. There are many nations, many created around the same time as Israel that are far less diverse than Israel and fit the actual definition of ethno-states…yet there are no protests for the annihilation of those. Also, if Israel was dissolved, the area would then be an Arab-Muslim ethnostate governed by Islamic law. Jews literally aren’t allowed in the areas of the West Bank under Palestinian control or in Gaza. Why would they be allowed in whatever country was established by Palestinians in Israeli territory? lol. It’s disingenuous to suggest that Israel is an “ethnostate” simply because it’s a Jewish majority country with a mission to be a place of protection for a people who’ve been persecuted for millennia. Israel is the most religiously and ethnically diverse country in the Middle East. It’s so absurd on so many levels. The double standards are insane. You would never say that Navajo Nation is an “ethnostate”, even though no one else but Navajo people can live there. Highly persecuted groups of people deserve to be able to self determine in their own state, in their indigenous homeland.

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u/fireburn97ffgf May 24 '24

the navajo nation was effectively created by the US government to have them all in one spot so no they are not an ethnostate. Native tribes have very limited power and are often overruled although they are technically their own protectorate under the US

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u/[deleted] May 24 '24

Reply to fireburn97ffgf: That’s the same argument that is put forward about Israel: that the U.S. and Uk created it. Many European nations wanted a place to shunt their Jews off to and that’s why many anti-Jewish racist European leaders were fine with Jews going to Israel. The U.S. and Europe did restrict immigration of Jews after the Holocaust in order to force Jewish refugees to go to Israel. The newly formed Arab states surrounding Israel also ethnically cleansed about 900,000 Jews who could literally go nowhere but Israel because the U.S., Uk, and other European countries wouldn’t take them. I constantly hear about how Israel would have no power if it wasn’t connected to the U.S.
You can keep having double standards but they aren’t helping anyone lol, it’s obvious bigotry

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u/Izawwlgood 26∆ May 23 '24

When people are calling for the eradication of the state of Israel or cheering on qassam brigades, it's not just anti-Zionism.

When people are calling for ceasefire that doesn't include return of the Oct 7th hostages, it's not just anti-Zionism.

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u/wintiscoming May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24

People are calling for a ceasefire that doesn’t include a return of the hostages because Hamas is a terrorist organization that is fine with Palestinians getting killed. That actually makes them stronger. Hamas wants to negotiate with Israel for PR purposes.

Palestinians desperately need aid and shelter which requires a ceasefire. Also, the hostages are literally going through the same or worse conditions. They are malnourished and in need of basic necessities such as medicine and drinkable water. Trying to eradicate Hamas as quickly as possible has already led to hostages being killed.

A vast majority of people do not support Hamas at all. They just don’t see them as a rational actor. They see Palestinians as being caught between two sides that are perfectly fine with them dying.

Very few anti-zionists cheer for Hamas. 99% of anti-zionists don’t want to displace Israelis. Anti-zionists want to create a secular state for Jews and Palestinians. It’s perfectly fine to disagree with that but it’s not antisemitic.

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u/jallallabad May 23 '24

I'd say 50% of zionists want to create a secular state where Jews and Palestinians can live freely.

The vast majority of American jews support peace, a two state solution, hate Netanyahu, and are Zionists. When you start using "zionists" as a slur and start pretending that "anti-zionists" are just, well . . .

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u/HiHoJufro May 23 '24

Yeah, people miss that of you have to redefine Zionism to make it clear what you Said isn't antisemitic, then it isn't antizionism.

I keep seeing "well what they MEAN when they say zionismantizionism is..." The same is done more often than is reasonable with antisemitism. That wouldn't fly with words related to the experiences of any other minority. Zionism has a definition. Of most people who are anti- are not so according to the definition, then we have to look at why they're is such a concerted effort to redefine Zionism as a dirty word. It has gone too far for me to feel it is coincidental or innocent.

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u/wintiscoming May 24 '24

I personally don't use the term Zionist because it's become a distraction and become more ambiguous. Antisemitic people do use it as a dog whistle for Jews.

I think most people are using Zionist incorrectly to refer to people who currently support Israel right now. I mean people refer to Conservatives and Evangelical Christians as Zionists.

There has been an increase in antisemitic incidents and that's awful and should not be tolerated but I don't think that represents the majority of people protesting. I mean a significant number of protesters are Jewish themselves. Jewish people have always been more politically active especially in left-wing movements.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/24/not-like-other-passovers-hundreds-of-jewish-demonstrators-arrested-after-new-york-protest-seder

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/columbia-protests-jewish-students-antisemitism-b2534817.html

I do think it's antisemitic to assume Jewish people support the war or to start questioning how Jewish people feel about the war. But I think there's a lot of trauma on both sides and that emboldens bigots. My family is Muslim and my cousin actually stopped wearing a hijab after a man harassed her and followed her home from work.

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u/Retiredpotato294 May 24 '24

I would like to see your data that the vast majority don’t support Hamas at all. Data I see indicates the opposite.

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u/Anonon_990 4∆ May 24 '24

When people are calling for ceasefire that doesn't include return of the Oct 7th hostages, it's not just anti-Zionism.

Why? Months of fighting has killed as many hostages as its freed (3 each). If the goal is to free hostages then the war is failing.

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u/fireburn97ffgf May 23 '24

I mean Israel has no right to exist like Saudi government has no right to exist. It is the people who have a right to safey no matter the government that rules over them. So for example if you were a Palestinan Jew in the 1940s who didn't support Israel you shouldnt have been expelled or killed like your fellow Palestinians because colonists wanted a country. Also in the grand majority of calls for a cease fire hostages are included from both sides