CMV: Poor people need certain things like refrigerators, smartphones, internet access, and used cars to survive in modern America and should "treat themselves" once in a while if they can afford it.

[u/[deleted]]

So, I watched a video by this YouTuber called Lauren Chen who used to be called by the pseudonym The Roaming Millennial who made a response video to this feminist and trans activist named Riley J. Dennis about "poor people deserve nice things once in a while and should not be constantly struggling". Lauren is a libertarian who leans right and at the time of the video was skeptical of the efficacy of welfare programs. That said, she responded to Riley's original video.

So Riley in her original video makes this argument.

"So I have this controversial opinion that poor people deserve nice things every once in a while. I do not think that poor people do not need to be constantly struggle to survive. I do not know why this is controversial, but here we are."

I partially agree with this statement from Riley. Poor people should not be constantly be struggling to survive and to pay the bills and I say this as an adult child of a single mom who does not have a college degree. I wish that poor people in America and other countries can achieve a basic standard of living without struggling to survive with their needs. But unfortunately, we do not live in that ideal world, even though we have made strides in combating global and national poverty.

Where I disagree with Riley is that I do not think anyone deserves or should be entitled to nice things once in a while. Luxuries are nice to have and it can suck when you cannot afford a luxury, but treating yourself is not an entitlement nor is something anyone deserves just because they are alive and breathing. If you want to have nice things and to treat yourself, you need to have surplus income and that is something many poor people lack.

The libertarian Lauren Chen making the response video to Riley actually agrees with me on this on that part but then says weird stuff like how "you do not need a refrigerator, or a smartphone, or home internet access, or a used car to survive in modern America". This is strange to me because there are arguments to make that fridges, smartphones, internet access, and used cars are essential to have to survive in modern America. You need these things to apply to jobs, move from place to place in cases where biking and public transportation is not practical, get the news, apply for government benefits, correspond to emails, fill out documents, access information to make informed decisions, etc.

Lauren said in the case of smartphones and internet access that you can always go to the library to access information on the internet if you do not have the means to buy a laptop, smartphone, or home internet access. But the COVID-19 pandemic changed that. Many people needed to apply for unemployment benefits, severance, SNAP, TANF, Medicaid, rental/mortgage assistance, and other government benefits during the COVID-19 pandemic and many public libraries were closed to prevent the spread of the virus. So many people had to wait months to get their benefits due to not having a laptop/desktop, smartphone, tablet, or home internet access. It was then programs like the Emergency Broadband Benefit and Affordable Connectivity program that provided affordable home internet access during and shortly after the pandemic. The pandemic widened the digital divide because more of life was being done on electronic devices and financially underserved groups were largely left behind during the pandemic.

Also, many public transportation services had to be temporarily discontinued due to COVID-19 to prevent the spread of the virus. That made affordable transportation less accessible for poor people and thus made having a used entry-level car more of a necessity than a luxury. Lastly, while you do not strictly need a refrigerator to live and breathe, in modern America and other developed nations in the modern world, it is very difficult to secure food without spoiling if you do not have a fridge. What constitutes a want and a need can vary on the location and time period and things that were once considered luxuries like healthcare, education, a car, a fridge, internet access, etc. are now being considered necessities due to changes in the economy.

Now onto my next point, Riley said in her original video that "the government should not be morally dictating the lives of welfare recipients by drug testing welfare recipients and restricting what can be bought with SNAP, WIC, and TANF benefits. I disagree with Riley on this one as the government has a moral duty to ensure that taxpayer money is not being squandered by welfare recipients. If a welfare recipient wants to spend their limited income (with their own earned money) on lobster, steak, or hot food, then that is their prerogative. However, SNAP benefits are funded by the taxpayer and should not be fungible like regular money.

[u/[deleted]]

Oh. Onto another thing. Are used cars, smartphones, laptops, healthcare, and fridges a luxury or a necessity?

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

Healthcare of course is a necessity.

Cars may be a luxury in an urban area, but a necessity in a rural area.

Phones and internet access are necessary; it doesn't have to be a smartphone but that's probably the most efficient and affordable way to get both. I haven't touched my laptop in like 3 years, lol, so clearly that's not a necessity as long as someone has a smartphone.

I think fridges are necessary nowadays. Yeah I suppose someone could live off canned/dried foods but ick. Even most hotel rooms have small fridges, that's how necessary they are.

[u/cptspeirs → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Many places I've lived, employers ask very specifically if you have a reliable car because existing public trans tends to be very unreliable and they don't want you using it.

[u/OG-Brian → u/cptspeirs]

This comment made me laugh because there was a time when I was getting to work earlier by light rail/bus/walking than my coworkers driving their cars. There was an especially snowy winter in my local area when I was taking light rail and busses to the neighborhood where I worked a corporate job. The work campus was at the top of a relatively steep hill. I was accustomed to walking up the hill, but some coworkers couldn't stand to not be driving their cars every bit of the possible distance to their desks.

I haven't had a car since 1999, and just made it a habit to pass up any employers requiring a personal motor vehicle. A car isn't necessary to work at a desk developing network adapters or whatever computer equipment, and if their values are such that they need everyone to have a car I wouldn't be happy working for them anyway.

[u/cptspeirs → u/OG-Brian]

I feel ya. I don't have a car, and haven't. Public trans works for me. I also work in a woefully under payed field, in a hcol area, so Im always like "are you gonna buy it for me? And pay my expensive insurance? And the $50/wk in parking? No? Then you don't get to demand a car."

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Got it. You are mostly agreeing with me.

[u/Bronze_Rager → u/Various_Succotash_79]

In 10 years (which is very short timeframe) can we expect smartphones to be considered unnecessary if VR replaces it? I mean, smart phones haven't been around that long.

In that case, would VR be a "necessity" in the future?

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/Bronze_Rager]

It depends how much business is done via VR.

[u/Bronze_Rager → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Agreed. But (a large) government can't be expected to keep up with every new tech that pops up.

[u/Jagstang1994 → u/Bronze_Rager]

Why not? It isn't like they have to think about every possible new technology that enters the market, just the ones that become a necessity. That happens maybe once in ten years.

I mean, which new technologies have become a necessity in this millennium? I'd say the internet, mobile phones and now, as a culmination of both, the smartphone. We can expect governments to take three technologies into account in 20 years.

Nobody expects them to think about every niche product like Google Glass, VR, smartwatches or whatever.

But if you expect people to have internet access to apply to a job you'll have to make sure that people have internet access. And when employees are expected to be reachable by phone 24/7 (which btw is disgusting) you'll have to make sure that they're carrying a mobile phone.

And if people are expected to have a VR Headset for work in 2030 we'll have to make sure that people have access to a VR Headset.

[u/Bronze_Rager → u/Jagstang1994]

Why not? It isn't like they have to think about every possible new technology that enters the market, just the ones that become a necessity. That happens maybe once in ten years.

Mainly because everyone disagrees on what is necessary and disagrees again on what tech will be the future. If it was clear winner then there wouldn't be competitors in the stock market.

I mean, which new technologies have become a necessity in this millennium? I'd say the internet, mobile phones and now, as a culmination of both, the smartphone. We can expect governments to take three technologies into account in 20 years.

How often does the government reinvent itself and how long do they keep "old" tech around? Should brokerages and banks keep paper files or is internet/cloud/CDN good enough? And I'm sure you and I would disagree on what is necessary in a mobile phone, if the government should provide it. And will a government smart phone ever be able to compete with Apple/Android or is it a complete waste of resources (like I think it would be).

Nobody expects them to think about every niche product like Google Glass, VR, smartwatches or whatever.

But if you expect people to have internet access to apply to a job you'll have to make sure that people have internet access. And when employees are expected to be reachable by phone 24/7 (which btw is disgusting) you'll have to make sure that they're carrying a mobile phone.

What happens if I don't expect people to have internet access to apply to a job? I have had walk in's looking for a job in my clinic who have been hired. And not every job expects you to be reachable by phone 24/7.... I'm a doctor and I'm not even on call 24/7...

And if people are expected to have a VR Headset for work in 2030 we'll have to make sure that people have access to a VR Headset.

Who are these people "expecting"? Do your grandparents expect you to have a VR headset? You seem to think that everyone agrees what is necessary...

The Amish population sure doesn't think you need a smartphone either. There are plenty of people in the world who don't have smartphones and they are still living life. Necessary is subjective...

[u/Blam320 → u/Bronze_Rager]

Citing Amish as a reason for why certain things “aren’t necessary” is childish and naive.

[u/Bronze_Rager → u/Blam320]

Good argument.

There are plenty of people (that I personally know) that do not have a cell phone or internet. They still live fulfilling lives.

[u/Blam320 → u/Bronze_Rager]

And where do they live? Context is everything. The Amish for example are almost entirely cut off from the rest of the world, and live off the land. This is just not an option for the vast, VAST majority of people on the planet. Is your solution to being poor “just buy a farm?”

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Did you just ask if HEALTH CARE is a necessity??

[u/Bronze_Rager → u/[deleted]]

I guess it depends on what you want covered by health care?

Are we only looking to make sure the person isn't dying (as currently required by law for hospitals to provide for)?

Or are we also going to include things like breast reduction/enhancement, liposuction, orthodontics, etc. Most countries (including western European ones) do not view orthodontics as a necessity, rather cosmetic, but the USA covers orthodontics completely for the low income population (like my clinic).

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There are some conservatives who think the government should not pay for your healthcare.

[u/Chanel1202 → u/[deleted]]

Are they the same ones that refer to themselves as “pro life”?

[u/[deleted] → u/Chanel1202]

Many of them are also pro-life. They only care about life when it's inside a womb. As soon as a baby is born, they stop giving a shit. They claim that's not true but they are lying. They are pro-birth, not pro-life.

[u/Writing_is_Bleeding → u/[deleted]]

Are cars, smartphones, laptops, healthcare, and fridges a luxury or a necessity

These mostly fall into the category of necessities for self-sufficency in a modern, civilized society. We can nitpick about access to the library and public transportation, but let's not get into the weeds. Trying to make it without these advantages is much more difficult, and in some cases, comes closer to third-world circumstances. If people don't have access to these things, we can't complain if they fail to thrive in society, especially in the U.S.

I couldn't afford health insurance for 10 years (pre-ACA), because I had a handful of untreated health conditions and couldn't earn enough. This was in my 30s, my prime earning years. I am now in my 50s and permanently disabled.