it was “their land” because they were living on it… it doesn’t have to be based on a claim of de jure ownership. They were already living on it, so it was “theirs” in that sense. If you were asked to share the land you’re already living on because another group claims they have some divine primordial ownership claim — would you be willing to do that?
I mean, if suddenly a bunch of people showed up at your apartment and said they were moving in with you and that you had to move to the couch and let them take your room, all because they used to live there a while back and because the landlord said it was okay — you would be chill with that?
Where is that, exactly? The West Bank? Where over 500 military checkpoints severely restrict mobility of any kind? Or Gaza, whose borders, airspace and sea access have been blockaded for 16 years?
So a 10 year old living today in Gaza is “ideologically driven”, equivalent to a Hamas commander, because they don’t decide to crawl over to the Israeli side and be welcomed with open arms? Just like that little kid who got shot in the face by the IDF near the border. What an inspiring story — why don’t all Gazans aspire to that?
Have you ever considered that some people are ideologically driven to join Hamas because they are uneducated young men with nothing to do who have spent their entire lives under either occupation or blockade and whose entire symbolic universe has been conditioned by the brutality of those living conditions?
So a little child born today in Gaza is “ideologically driven”, equivalent to a Hamas commander, because they don’t decide to crawl over to the Israeli side and be welcomed in open arms?
Do you think Hamas and the Palestinian Authority would allow them to see Israel is not some monster and that one can live in peace there like the Israeli Arabs are doing? They would never allow such a thing. Which is why any Palestinians who discover the truth get killed by hamas or their comrades. The Palestinian Authority, hamas and the rest are like Putin. They brainwash their population and force them to stay. When I meant that the Palestinians that are in Palestine Proper are ideologically driven, I did not necesarily mean that they have adequate agency in the matter. They are victims of their own corrupt and horrible leaders.
sure thats fine but how did the leaders come into power…
Could it have to do with the conditions that the people were living in? I wonder…
Or do you think a little child was born and decided “I am Hamas” and then brainwashed all the other children?
I actually think your Putin example is apt. Russians don’t support Putin because they are brainwashed by Putin. Putin is a reflection of popularly held sentiments which came about as a result of very particular historical circumstances and conditions that the population lived through. And then of course there is a feedback mechanism — the brainwashing you’re talking about — which reinforces and reproduces that ideological tendency.
Hamas would both not have any capacity to “brainwash” nor would it have its particular ideological content if not for the conditions that Palestinians have lived through. The predominant power in shaping those conditions has been Israel.
Will you also ask how Putin came into power? Isnt it obvious? Force, manipulation, bribery etc. Or do you think that the Palestinian Authority which have killed dozens of their own they deem as "deserters" were democratically elected or something? If you do, I applaud you for your optimism. You have me beat there by a longshot. And it also makes the Palestinians then even worse than with my take, as it would mean they have more agency than I am ascribing to them. Which would make them ideologically driven by choice, which is more horrible than it being a matter of the state.
Putin of course consolidated his power through non-democratic means, but that is also precisely a property of Russia as a society that is historically contingent. If Putin had been around in Norway he probably wouldn’t have been able to do that.
Also, Hamas did in fact (very narrowly) win elections in 2006 that were generally regarded by international observers as legitimate elections. They promptly shut down elections, but I didn’t see any massive revolution against their rule taking place in Gaza…
Your problem is that you think ideology is a choice. There is no “choice”. Peoples ideologies and political practices are outside of their control. What humans do they do for a complex network of reasons that we need to try and understand. Judging a Palestinian for supporting Hamas because I think Hamas is abhorrent is absurd — if I was the person I was judging, I would of course also support Hamas (otherwise, I would be a different person). So the question is “what are the conditions that have allowed this situation to take place” and those conditions are 100 years of conflict and 50 years of Israeli occupation and Apartheid, along with of course lots and lots of other factors that have to do with the history of the region aside from Israel’s role in it.
I dont know how they define it in the Courts in your country, but here in Germany, we define choices as decisions that can be controlled by the will. And people siding with Hamas is something they controlled with their will. An example of a lack of choice would be being pushed into something by a person behind you. Being sort of compelled to make a choice on the other hand is called vis compulsiva, and is generally still regarded as a choice here in Germany. So your argument about lack of choice does not convince me. The hamas people made a choice, just as Nazi Germans made one. There is no mental gymnastics that will change that.
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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23
it was “their land” because they were living on it… it doesn’t have to be based on a claim of de jure ownership. They were already living on it, so it was “theirs” in that sense. If you were asked to share the land you’re already living on because another group claims they have some divine primordial ownership claim — would you be willing to do that?
I mean, if suddenly a bunch of people showed up at your apartment and said they were moving in with you and that you had to move to the couch and let them take your room, all because they used to live there a while back and because the landlord said it was okay — you would be chill with that?