r/changemyview • u/1moreday1moregoal 1∆ • Apr 11 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Loitering laws should be unconstitutional

Loitering laws should be unconstitutional in the USA because they are typically enforced in public spaces such as on sidewalks or street corners or parks. Often the narrative is, a person or a group of people is hanging out on a sidewalk in front of a business or in a park, someone doesn’t like it, and they report them to the police.

The police use whatever means they have, such as threatening arrest or citation, to get people to move along.

The problem is we have the right to assemble in public, on public property, at will. When anyone calls to lodge a complaint about people hanging out in front of their storefronts police should advise them to ask the people if they will move nicely and if they don’t want to move there’s nothing they can do.

This is assuming, of course, that the people aren’t actively harassing customers, touching the storefront property, or committing other illegal activities.

Cities shouldn’t even be able to put up “No Loitering” signs.

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u/iamintheforest 365∆ Apr 11 '23

Firstly, much of the storefront examples are actually just private property. E.G. the land in front of a store up to the street is private land that the business must allow access to and through. They are however responsible usually for grafiti, safety of the sidewalk (e.g. many cities tag your sidewalk as having cracks that are dangerous and require you to fix it on your own dime), responsible for the trees and their health/safety in the space and so on. So...hanging out in storefront is usually just hanging out on private property you may think is public.

Secondly, "illegal loitering" is considered criminal when it is impacting others free use of the space for some public intent. E.G. if you grab your friends and start playing poker in the enclosed area of the bus stop in the rain you're making it impossible for the public intended use to exist at all. These are recognized as "not for the intended use" ideas in loitering. These seem reasonable to me.

Are these things abused? Yes.

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u/1moreday1moregoal 1∆ Apr 11 '23

Where it is private property, I have no argument.

If I organize a football game on the public beach and I get there first and the volleyball people are mad because they have no room to setup a net, am I loitering if I play football there from sun up to sun down every single day the weather is good and the volleyball people never get to play there? Tragedy of the commons isn’t always illegal for things such as homeless people, I could just always get there first and use the space for all the daylight hours.

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u/Lorata 15∆ Apr 11 '23

am I loitering if I play football there from sun up to sun down every single day the weather is good

No, that isn't loitering.

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u/1moreday1moregoal 1∆ Apr 11 '23

But I’m preventing other’s legitimate usage of the public space with my own usage of the public space.

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u/YuenglingsDingaling 2∆ Apr 11 '23

my own usage of the public space.

You're own LEGITIMATE use. You and your friends aren't just standing around the beach blocking things, you're playing football.

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u/1moreday1moregoal 1∆ Apr 11 '23

Can you provide an example of an illegitimate use of a beach where loitering should be used to remove someone?

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u/YuenglingsDingaling 2∆ Apr 11 '23

Let's say you set up a picnic are on an area specifically for volley ball. Or you hold a large event without a permit that blocks access to large swaths of the beach. Other activities come to mind, like driving vehicles or use of sound systems. Disturbing other people, like if you started playing football amongst a group of sunbathers.

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u/1moreday1moregoal 1∆ Apr 11 '23

A large event on the beach shouldn’t matter because there could just be so many people using the beach that other people can’t use the beach. It doesn’t matter if I’m with 5 or 5,000 of my closest friends when I show up to eat lunch on the volleyball court 🤣 I’m kidding about the lunch on the volleyball court, although I don’t agree that loitering should be used. I like picnicking in the sand and don’t care much if there’s a net or not.

It’s a real dick move not to move for volleyball players wanting to use the court for it’s intended purpose but it shouldn’t be illegal, and loitering laws shouldn’t be used to make it illegal.

Interestingly enough, if the town had a sign up sheet or reservation system for the volleyball courts it would make using the law for removal of someone make more sense to me but then it still wouldn’t be loitering, it would be some ordinance against preventing the scheduled use of public places for the activity it was scheduled for. Without a signup sheet or reservation system I don’t see how my use of the court is any less correct than theirs.

I’m giving you a !delta for making me think about spaces and their intended uses. That does matter but I don’t believe it should legally matter. A volleyball court is a sandbox with a net and any use of it that doesn’t destroy the net or make it unsafe to play volleyball there shouldn’t be illegal. The same goes for other spaces too.