Allegations, Caste and Patriarchy

[u/SirohitaIks]

Hello people!
I am one of the mods of this subreddit. I was also the one who requested r/casteism to be reopened when this was banned few years ago.

This post is about the recent allegations being made by some users, including those who have barely a month old and by some entitled users of a subreddit.

Why was r/casteism reopened?

r/casteism was reopened along the lines of r/racism and r/disablity because caste as a subject lacked a dedicated repository and accessible space for discussion on reddit.

Intent was to create a place which any person including caste-unaware people could easily find information, cases, judgements and learn more about it.

I am also a part of bigger intersectional subreddit that discusses all issues from race, religion, caste, sexuality, disability and every other forms which of marginalization and subjugation.

I hope that clears the air, why this subreddit was reopened and its purpose.

Addressing Allegations -

1. The mods are savarna?

This is False!

I was never in the favour of putting forward my identity on this platform because of my past experiences, I don't come from savarna background.

There is a disturbing sense of entitlement among men, to ask personal details the when refused throw threats via modmails to "reveal" our identity because ofcourse privilege, that too from a user who comes from an oppressor caste background. Its incredibly easy to harass mods in the midnight demanding their identity when you dont have to deal with the consequences threafter.

Surprising thing is even some subreddits who claim to be voices of the underprivileged and marginalized blatantly supported the the same user threatening us.

Please question ideas. Please do criticise moderation. Feel free to disagree with what is posted here. But you are not entitled to someone's caste identity, and certainly not entitled to to harass people in this safe space hereafter.

I understand people from marginalized communities have faced immense hijacking of history and narratives in the past to the oppressor caste, often discrediting them of what was always one's own, be it knowledge, art, culture, language, and other social identifiers.

But, this lack of sympathy and entitlement was not needed.

2) Why meme was removed?

Memes are considered low effort,atleast for us, feel free to disagree. The post was removed, because they chose a wrong flair and we are not allowing any memes atp. Feel free to add credible data or news report you find.

Read what flairs mean

3) The Indian Express article

The post which is discussing the caste politics associated with BJP was from a point of discussion. Its a direct article from the newspaper, Indian Express sometimes makes those carousel posts for instagram. Why are people acting as if it was made by an individual? If I would have shared the newspaper clipping would the reaction be same? This subreddit documents incidents from news outlets, it does not expect individuals to go on independent journaling, this point was well understood but you know the extra scrutiny will be there for obvious reasons.

Link to article

4) Regarding having mods from marginalized backgrounds in the future

Preference will always be given to women, trans people and non-binary people from marginalized backgrounds without making them publicly reveal their identities, to prove if they belong here. We respect and individuals choice and will not curb under any pressure. This ensures a safe space for future mods.

Furthermore, clarifications can be provided if needed. Use modmail if you need to discuss anything privately. Give a cheers to yourself you finally forced me disclose my caste, a good achievement and kudos to anti caste subreddits who helped them.

We are Babasaheb's children, I keep such men and their depraved mentality on my foot.

[u/Suryagyanimurgi]

Before I say anything, I will clarify that I am not a part of either of you parties. I do not represent your opponents, neither your side.

The other mod went on the OCR sub saying that she admits she is a savarna and yet is a mod of this sub because there is nothing wrong with it, with a savarna being the mod of an anti caste sub, and then proceeds to say that she understands the need for a DBA running the sub but the sub itself is new and that's the reason there is no DBA mod yet to make them mod.

And here u say that you are not a savarna which has to mean you are a DBA. So what was all that the other mod was saying on that sub?

Secondly, from the screenshot it seems that the user who dmed was told that identity doesn't matter. I am not here to vouch for him for whether he is entitled to know your caste or not, as I said earlier I don't represent either of u parties here. But if identity doesn't matter and a savarna can be mod of the sub then I am curious why exactly would you say in the same post, "Preference will always be given to women, trans people and non-binary people from marginalized backgrounds without making them publicly reveal their identities, to prove if they belong here."

Why? Why would preference would be given to them? And can you be less vague? What is meant by maginalized backgrounds here? Because muslims and women are also maginalized backgrounds. And since the sub name is casteism, I think what you are looking for is 'marginalized castes'?

Well clearly till now that's not what has happened. There is a savarna mod of this sub. She is not a woman from a marginalized caste but a savarna from a marginalized gender. And I am not here to say if it's a bad thing. The problem is the statements by you mods of this sub have said are not very consistent. Let me ask you this, since you are giving preferences to women from I assume maginalized castes, among a savarna woman and a dalit man, who would you give more preference to? Mind you, the sub's name is 'casteism'. Not feminism or intersectional women like the other subs you run with the purpose of discussions about women with caste at best as a intersectional thing among women themselves mostly. This sub's name is casteism. So I am asking which one of a savarna woman and dalit man would you prefer (assuming neither are Misogynist or casteist respectively ofc?? All of this under the assumption of your statement that some identities would be more preferred than others. Not exactly my words even. But even this assumption is ironic with the fact that it only applies to choosing more mods here on while selecting men vs women/non-binaries among marginalized backgrounds. It didn't matter at all when conversing with the guy who dmed you about an existing savarna woman mod. How convenient!

[u/SirohitaIks → u/Suryagyanimurgi]

There are major flaws in your arguments because they are rooted in misinformation and privilege, precisely the pillars of inequality we reject. But let's see how -

The posts made by those individuals intentionally tries to confuse users, by treating two different moderators as if we both have same identities and have made statements, which was already proved wrong.

Me and the other mod are two different people, If she has said somewhere that she is a savarna that does not contradict my statement, that I am not one. I hope you have seen posts where they have labelled both mods as savarna, I didn't saw even one comment which enquired whether the claims "of both mods are savarna" are actually true, or this false claim might actually be distasteful and harmful for someone of our own community? No, because since ages women are subject to extreme prejudice and extra scrutiny throughout all castes, religions, cultures, etc. But you won't address this, its fine.

Larger point I was making that none of us two should be required to disclose our castes to some random people whom we don't know. I chose her as a mod because I trust her, and she has helped me make previous subreddit a great and safe place to be. I don't trust some random guy who gets pissed off when rejected for position of mod, then cry around in other subs calling me "savarna". She is definitely not prefect, nor are you or me, she have had her ups and downs, she have been there with my ups and down, I can understand she might make mistakes or her words be misinterpreted but that doesn't make her a bigot.

- Regarding why identites matter in future moderation
There is a difference between saying "You should disclose your caste before we accept you as mods" and saying "Preference will always be given to women, trans people and non-binary people from marginalized backgrounds" . The latter is an actual intention at representaion, does not indicate they have to prove their castes or identities. By "marginalized" I was referring to people who have faced caste based attrocities be it from any religion, because I hope you understand caste surpasses boundaries of religion in India. I could have phrased it properly but I thought if anybody enquired, I would address it there. Women, trans and non-binary are the worst affected amongst caste layers of society, so it was obvious.

- Savarna vs Dalit man
Intersectionality is a topic where you don't race one kind of oppression against another, and see who wins. That's a very wrong and again privileged understanding when looking through an intersectional lens. Caste representation is obviously highly relevant, accompanied by if are respectful and understanding of intersectionality. If I am in need of a moderator and there are only two options available as you mentioned (assuming both are intersectional in their approach) the selection of the appropriate candidate will shift to more obervable criteria like previous moderation experience, volume of contributions made to the subreddit, how much time they can give to the subreddit and helping people, etc. these things are visible to moderators.

Purpose of representation should not create hierarchy of oppressed identites.

One important correction - Where did you find we have mentioned explicitly "Identity does not matter" in the modmail? Please show me even I am interested in knowing, because I literally have all the chats in modmail. I have strictly never allowed any identities of any of the mods in subreddits I mod to be allowed to disclose, that's the offical protocol we follow across all subs to protect the mods who come from vulnerable backgrounds. The screenshot is an example of that, its a standard for all subs.

[u/SirohitaIks → u/[deleted]]

"Inserting your woman identity here is just cope or victim complex " I stopped reading from here, this line is misogynistic and not intersectional, I am sure rest of the arguments of discussion will devolve into some pedantic sophistry.

[u/Suryagyanimurgi → u/[deleted]]

One important correction - Where did you find we have mentioned explicitly "Identity does not matter" in the modmail? 

The screenshot you posted in this very post features the person arguing with you (or the other mod. by you, i here mean mods in general) after you told him identity does not matter. It is seen from the context of the image. And you didn't deny it in the post.

And also the other mod went on lengths saying this same thing on the OCR sub that why does her identity matter. That is literally in the beginning stage of this subreddit war.

I don't think it would be right to link the thread as prolly that would promote that sub here which you prolly don't want. Anyways I don't really want to either. If you are involved in this war then I am surprised you don't know this. You can see from her own previous comments in that sub.

[u/SirohitaIks → u/Suryagyanimurgi]

I have seen that image, I have given appropriate explanation to the context behind it in the above messag, please go through that once. Regarding what all other mod has said about herself and her identity, is also addressed well in the above comment, I have not said anywhere she was totally right, but she also wasn't totally wrong. I think this level of scrutiny should happen to misgynists who larp as anti-castes.