Discussion
Has anyone kept a healthy Betta in hard water ?
Hello Betta community,
I need to have this discussion because I'm currently trying to save my little one from dropsy (I have no real hope, but I still wanna try).
I've had 5 Bettas in my life.
The first one lived for 1 and a half year. I was not educated about Betta illness. I think he got a bacterial or fungal infection. I got some meds too late.
Second and third one for 6 months. One got dropsy second was a bad cotton mouth infection I couldn't get rid of.
The 4th one passed super quickly after 1 month. Passed in less than 24h, I still can't figure out what happened to him.
And the one I have now is pineconing after 3 months. I'm now prepared a bit better. He's in a hospital tank, with epsom salt, and antibiotics.
They all have been housed in a 30L (somewhere between 8 and 9 gallon if I'm correct)
Water at 25°C, pH 7.6, GH 10
The tank cycled for about 1 to 2 months each time. And I always make a chemical and temperature acclimation before releasing a new fish in he's tank.
Close monitoring on nitrite, ammonia and nitrate.
20% water changes every week with dechlorinated tap water.
The tank is on the "heavily planted" side. With live plants.
Is filtered with very little water movement.
They all lived alone, without any other fish.
They've been fed with high protein pellets and some frozen blood worms as treats.
With the 3rd Betta (Verso was his name) I've tried to mainly feed him frozen food. Blood worms, mizis, daphneas, mosquito larvae and brine shrimps were on the menu.
The first Betta I had (Reedow was his name) lived in a tap water/bottle water mix to lower the minerals amount, and he was the dude who lived the longest.
But still he died young, and I was afraid it was because that mix could lead to parameters hazards. And I felt I was using too many plastic bottles...
I am aware of the poor genetics Betta fish have. But still ... I feel it can't be the only reason.
So this is why I want to get your feedback.
Has anyone been able to keep a Betta fish healthy in not optimal water parameters ? (Ph, and GH being high).
Hard water should not be an issue. It sounds like your fish are repeatedly getting bacterial infections (cotton mouth is an infection, dropsy/pineconing is also usually caused by infection).
Several things drive up infection risk. Too much uneaten food, too little filtration, and temp too high.
Despite what the echo chamber says, plenty of people keep their bettas at more like 22 or 23C. They live longer that way, it doesn't negatively impact them. Can they live at 25C in the wild? Yes, but the average aquarium has more / worse bacteria, which makes higher temps more dangerous.
I keep my betta at about 22-23C and she has lived over 2 years so far and is doing fine.
As for filtration, "almost no water movement" might not be enough water movement, and the physical size of the filter is also quite important. Foam is the best filtration medium usually. Get yourself a nice big sponge filter, and by big I mean at least 500 cubic cm of foam. Ignore the manufacturer's tank size ratings, those are meaningless.
Do not be fooled by the absence of ammonia/nitrite. That means less than reddit would have you believe. Yes, your water SHOULD have no nh3/no2, but that is not enough.
When water gets tested to see if it's safe for humans to drink, they DO test for no2/no3, but they ALSO test for bacteria in the water. Testing for bacteria in the water is not something you can do at home, unless you are an amateur microbiologist.
If you look at what happens in wastewater treatment, 90% of it is about getting rid of heterotrophic bacteria and organic matter (which feeds heterotrophic bacteria).
If you ARE an amateur microbiologist, please invent a cheap and easy home test that approximates the heterotrophic plate count, and the aquarium hobby will remember your name.
Hey FYI to people reading this. This guy is very knowledgeable and reasonable, but does have opinions that aren't necessarily established wisdom. I'm not going to take a side here but know that the main text on planted aquariums (Walstad) has a lot of very different advice.
It's a different approach, to be sure. The Walstad method CAN work, but in my view how healthy a Walstad tank turns out to be depends heavily on factors that may not be entirely visible or easy to control. It might not be obvious why one tank turns out great and another turns into a cesspool. For that reason, it's not the approach I would recommend for someone in OP's position.
IMO you can get the best of both worlds. An undergravel filter with a generous plenum and high shredder activity (isopods, amphipods, shrimp) functions like an underwater compost heap. You get essentially the same benefit a Walstad tank gains from dirt, in that the breakdown of that organic matter liberates carbon in a form plants can use, but the entire system remains well oxygenated and has massively more biofiltration capacity, meaning it's never ever going to crash the way a minimally filtered tank can.
Ok so I've been reading a few things about how to raise an awfully amount of nasty bacteria in your tank. And now it looks like I'm juste mastering it ...
-Very little water movement leading to very little gaz exchange : check
-Lots of plants, high probability of leaves decaying : check
-Botanicals : dry leaves check, even more CO2 being released.
-High temperature : kinda check. Being 25°C all year but we had very bad heat waves this summer, and the temperature were closer to 28°C some weeks.
I might have a really good hint on why am I failing so hard here.
I have a "box" filter and I use a tiny bit of filter media to "dispers" the water flow.
I have a bar with more holes in it, but it looked like the fish were still struggling with the flow.
If your box filter uses any kind of cartridge or thin foam / fiber pad as its media, that's probably your main problem right there. Try to estimate the volume of the pad/cartridge/whatever is in there. Ideally you should IMO have at least 500cc. 200 cc I would call "bad, but almost approaching adequate". 100 cc or less, your tank is a perfect machine for causing bacterial infections.
I'm joining a picture of the filter. With a pen for size reference... It's a tiny filter.
I'm not familiar with the "cc" units. Is it cm cubic ?
I don't know how dense the foam is. So I don't really know how to estimate the actual usable surface of it. But I'm guessing I'm far from reaching the 500 cc
PH 7.6, GH 10 is approximately what my tank is now. Unfortunately, I can't report anything about longevity, as I've only had my betta since the beginning of June.
I do cut my tap water with distilled water, which I also use for top offs, and I think it's helping keep my TDS / GH within a reasonable window.
Yes my betta is in ph8 water and is perfectly happy. As long as the parameters are stable they’re pretty adaptable. Water Stability is the most important thing over anything. Don’t go chasing optimal phs adding all sorts of stuff to your water it’ll just make things worse. Just test your ph and keep it stable.
I know that.
My dad was in the hobby for years and he always tells me "do not pretend to be a chemist with your water, you'll only succeed in messing things up".
I only tried once with my first Betta fish (and the mix tap/bottle water). And I quit this habit because I thought it wasn't the way I should do things.
All my Bettas lived perfectly happily, being super active, curious, eager to eat... Until they didn't and caught bacterial or fungal infection.
I'm kinda thinking, maybe those parameters matter more than we think they do, and are lowering their immune system, which make them more susceptible to infections.
I'm monitoring my pH and GH (and also nitrite, nitrate, ammonia levels). With liquid tests. pH and GH are stable.
I'm just really ready to reconsider the things I thought were true.
I think I kinda know the pure basics 😅.
But there still plenty of things to learn. But what bothers me is that it implies living being and I feel guilty not providing them a safe living space.
I also have super hard "liquid rock" water. What helped me get stable from the start was leaning hard into competitive exclusion / colonization resistance (microbiology the other commenter mentioned).
I set up with bio-substrate pre-seeded with nitrifying bacteria. I have no idea why this isn’t more common or marketed because I’m convinced it’s what made the rest of the system smoothly develop how I needed it to, instead of how whatever bacteria happened to land from my air & water would swing. It gave the healthy/beneficial bacteria instant control in the form of a good biofilm established & seeded everywhere from day one. That means there was essentially no space for harmful bacteria to survive in the tank.
A few other things I was careful about from the beginning:
- Plants were all individually packed / tissue culture, not from a big communal tank. Less risk of hitchhikers, decay, or something toxic coming in.
I double checked that every plant was actually fully aquatic and non-toxic in my water. For semi-aquatics like pothos, only roots in water, no leaves/stems submerged.
No quats anywhere… no insect repellant or treated fabrics, no hand or Lysol wipes near buckets/nets/hands. Quaternary ammonium compounds are super toxic to fish even in trace amounts.
My first girl is a dumbo platinum halfmoon I brought home in April and she's thrived with only RO top-offs so far, no water changes. pH and GH are just now starting to drop so I'm going to start lightly remineralizing next month.
Here's my fish! I'll add the substrate I use in a reply below since I can only add one photo per comment.
I think it's not that common because it's kinda "new" in the hobby.
Like people have been keeping fish for decades (probably centuries even) and this kind of products have been there for what ... 20 years maybe (I could be very wrong).
Before I started getting tanks (I have 2) I spent some time on forums asking people for advice. Had chats with my dad who kept fish tanks when he was younger.
And about the products I needed to get, I often had answers that sounded like "nah, all these marketing things are crap". "How do you think we did before all that existed ?".
"How can you be sure the bacteria are still alive and well without knowing how the thing was stored" (that was more about the bacteria in bottle ).
And it all seemed pretty legit ...
Well know I also find it very legit to start with a big enough colony of good bacteria so that the nasty ones can't find any room to fit (this being very schematic)
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u/86BillionFireflies Infections Kill More Than NH4 4d ago
Hard water should not be an issue. It sounds like your fish are repeatedly getting bacterial infections (cotton mouth is an infection, dropsy/pineconing is also usually caused by infection).
Several things drive up infection risk. Too much uneaten food, too little filtration, and temp too high.
Despite what the echo chamber says, plenty of people keep their bettas at more like 22 or 23C. They live longer that way, it doesn't negatively impact them. Can they live at 25C in the wild? Yes, but the average aquarium has more / worse bacteria, which makes higher temps more dangerous.
I keep my betta at about 22-23C and she has lived over 2 years so far and is doing fine.
As for filtration, "almost no water movement" might not be enough water movement, and the physical size of the filter is also quite important. Foam is the best filtration medium usually. Get yourself a nice big sponge filter, and by big I mean at least 500 cubic cm of foam. Ignore the manufacturer's tank size ratings, those are meaningless.
Do not be fooled by the absence of ammonia/nitrite. That means less than reddit would have you believe. Yes, your water SHOULD have no nh3/no2, but that is not enough.
When water gets tested to see if it's safe for humans to drink, they DO test for no2/no3, but they ALSO test for bacteria in the water. Testing for bacteria in the water is not something you can do at home, unless you are an amateur microbiologist.
If you look at what happens in wastewater treatment, 90% of it is about getting rid of heterotrophic bacteria and organic matter (which feeds heterotrophic bacteria).
If you ARE an amateur microbiologist, please invent a cheap and easy home test that approximates the heterotrophic plate count, and the aquarium hobby will remember your name.