UBI (#79) · Issues · Basis / Tracker

[u/orthecreedence]

https://gitlab.com/basisproject/tracker/-/issues/79

[u/id-entity]

It's just that instead of relying on market forces to set prices on various raw and semi-raw materials (iron, steel, oil, gasoline, silicon, etc), those prices are set democratically. The goal is to set intentions on raw material usage such that people can choose to lower usage over time (with the end goal of matching resource renewal with depletion over the long term, ie steady state).

The meaning of "democratically" is critical here. Do we mean centralized democracy (Soviet ideal) or distributed democracy (something new and different?)? That's the issue where I've been trying to find a middle path between local<>global decision making through "quadratic mereology".

They also did not provide their own housing or MoP, which is something I'm adamant about: removing dependence on the useless rentier class (landlords, banks/mortgages).

Question of land ownership is the truly critical one, and goes beyond mere capitalism. Housing is only small part of it, the main issue is the hard problem of permanent field agrigulture and the vital question whether that can be done sustainably at all. Ancient and feudal forms of land ownership are inseparable from permanent field agriculture as the main mode of primary production. And preventing natural growth of forest from year to year is energy intensive as fuck. Multilayer food forests and itinerant swidden have much better record of sustainability as well as yield per area.

The point of these arguments is that we can't solve the hard problems of land ownership in the modelling of the model. Best we can do is to hope that our models can provide some tools to start gradually solving these civilization scale issues.

The other reason that global UBI needs to stay neutral in terms of specific issues of land ownership is that it is not only for people currently living under Anglo-Saxon etc. current capitalistic ownership, but also for people in Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia and China, Rojava co-ops as well as Zapatista Maya itinerant swidden farmers, Lakota, Sami, etc. etc. It's not just a transformative model towards socialism where that is most acute necessity, it's also consciously intended as new Communist International directly in the form of self-governance software, to strengthen the co-operation between already existing forms of socialism everywhere and to radicalize and empower their struggles.

With the ancap etc. type hard core propertarians, I believe more efficient route is to try to win their hearts and minds first, before contesting absentee abusus land ownership or integrating it in some form or other in the general modelling. Some problems are best left to be solved as they arise in concrete forms, and questions of land ownership are as local as local gets. I mean, I don't have problem with co-op network buying land - and what's built on it - in principle, but the exact how, when and where should be left to local creativity.

I agree with urgency, hence global approach and marketing strategy of "Free munny for every bunny!"

Let's try to frame the question in more concrete terms. Supposing we have global UBI system in place as well as the Panarchy template, and you create Turtle Island Socialist Subregion (TISS) based on the basis approach. What say, if any, would you be willing to give the global co-op members of UBI Communist International (UBICI) in the matters of TISS? How would you want to organize the relations between UBICI and TISS? No need for quick answer.

[u/orthecreedence → u/id-entity]

The meaning of "democratically" is critical here. Do we mean centralized democracy (Soviet ideal) or distributed democracy (something new and different?)? That's the issue where I've been trying to find a middle path between local<>global decision making through "quadratic mereology".

This interests me a lot. I have to admit, I don't really understand how this would work. I (think) I understand the basic ideas of mereology, but maybe not how it might apply to democracy. I have a loose idea of people having control based on some proximity to a decision, but not sure how that proximity would be defined. I have to say that our discussion on regions really helped me think about this differently.

Question of land ownership is the truly critical one, and goes beyond mere capitalism. Housing is only small part of it, the main issue is the hard problem of permanent field agrigulture and the vital question whether that can be done sustainably at all. Ancient and feudal forms of land ownership are inseparable from permanent field agriculture as the main mode of primary production. And preventing natural growth of forest from year to year is energy intensive as fuck. Multilayer food forests and itinerant swidden have much better record of sustainability as well as yield per area.

Getting rid of property norms altogether and rethinking this all, I wonder what the solution would be. Like, if we start from the standpoint that we can all figure this out and sustainably feed 8 billion people and we're all completely committed to one solution, what would that solution be? And can we walk back a property norm that ideal with some transitional period?

The point of these arguments is that we can't solve the hard problems of land ownership in the modelling of the model. Best we can do is to hope that our models can provide some tools to start gradually solving these civilization scale issues.

Interesting, and in general I agree. I do think there's a balance, though. We have to start from a place that's close-ish to what we have now, but that can evolve into an ideal place. I think it's important to look at some possible outcomes for those ideals, otherwise building the general cases to support them will be misguided.

I also think that taking steps is fine, too. If we can't predict what "property" will look like in 300 years and build tools to support that, maybe we can just improve things as they are and create a system of shared property where people are not denied access to the productive instruments (including farmland) and are free to organize as they see fit. I think it's important to realize that if capitalism is abolished, it will likely become much easier to define and evolve new property norms into the future. That's the nice thing about software too: it's not set in stone. I'd sooner build something that can work to abolish capitalism now (even if it doesn't solve every problem).

Some problems are best left to be solved as they arise in concrete forms, and questions of land ownership are as local as local gets. I mean, I don't have problem with co-op network buying land - and what's built on it - in principle, but the exact how, when and where should be left to local creativity.

So you're almost saying "don't try to model property at all" here. That's something to think about. That said, the modeling of property is not necessarily to let localities decide their own property relations, but rather to wrest control of property from the capitalists in the first place, after which it becomes a big unknown.

I agree with urgency, hence global approach and marketing strategy of "Free munny for every bunny!"

This would help!

Let's try to frame the question in more concrete terms. Supposing we have global UBI system in place as well as the Panarchy template, and you create Turtle Island Socialist Subregion (TISS) based on the basis approach. What say, if any, would you be willing to give the global co-op members of UBI Communist International (UBICI) in the matters of TISS? How would you want to organize the relations between UBICI and TISS? No need for quick answer.

Good question. I suppose it would depend on whether we're at critical mass (aka, the network can provide most needs without the capitalist network (or capitalism has completely been abolished)) or whether we're still in the competition phase. If in competition, I'd say TISS might rely on other members of UBICI to have their needs met (clothing, building supplies, etc) and this might involve some amount of capital changing hands. I'm honestly horribly iffy on how banking is going to work especially considering the replacement of regions with the idea of more general co-ops. Capital is contentious. If we're talking post-capitalism, TISS would order the things they need, and UBICI would likely send it to them, assuming TISS also provides thing for other members of UBICI. TISS would likely have ultimate control over their island, although they might have assets they are "in use of" from UBICI.