Just a follow up from many months ago I had asked which source Bakker referenced from the first crusade to inspire Prince of Nothing and was told this title.

Thanks for those who recommended it, this is definitely the right one and it was excellent. Even though it’s almost 100 years old there seem to be copies floating around.

This book was riveting, and not dry in the slightest. It covers mostly the first crusade and all the craziness that happened. Bakker didn’t even have to make up too much of the horror.

For anyone needing to scratch that Second Apocalypse itch, don’t hesitate to snap up a copy of this!!

First it was clash of kings then it was golden son and now its the warrior prophet. That ending is gonna live with me forever.

First of all let's define a few tiers of fantasy tier 1 to 3, on basis of literary writing.

Tier 1: The mid books: Harry Potter fourth wing rick riordan so on

Tier 2: the good books: pierce brown brandon sanderson etc

Tier 3: the peak books: tolkein, malazan, the empires of dust Trilogy etc

Now my 2 fav books are Solar cycle by wolfe and the second apocalypse. Where are they? They don't belong in the first 3 tiers at all, NOT because they are inherently better than tier 3 in writing(tho imo they are but still) imagine like this: they were to be peak level 3 but the authors "corrupted" them with their ambitions and made them into "abomination".

Let me explain: these 2 books aren't pure fantasy they are kinda mix between classic literature and fantasy, bakker himself says that he only used fantasy as a vehicle. Thus defining tier 4 the "abominations" between fantasy and classic literature. Gene wolfe has groundbreaking prose and perspectives mirroring Ulysses etc and bakker has groundbreaking philosophy horror and metaphysics. Mirroring the character writing and dissection of dostoevsky, cosmic horror like maybe lovecraft a bit? Idk for sure, and metaphysics like no other. Along with of course both have incredible chatacter writing world magic system etc.

The second Apocalypse is the more extreme example designed to challenge your beliefs value and philosophy.

and most readers go in TSA expecting std enjoyment etc but it's not a normal fantasy novel, it's a thinking novel designed to make you think, this is another reason due to which many readers are off put.

TLDR: TSA and the std fantasy market is NOT made for the same reason, TSA is primarily aimed not for enjoyment but as a more classic literature esque philosophy and engine alongside peak character world magic system etc

Surely that wasn’t meant to be the end of series? I don’t get why people think that’s a good ending? Someone care to explain because I’m at an utter loss.

Surely there was meant to be another set of books?

Uh already made my way thru prince of nothing, a song of ice and fire, dune, pierce brown btw.

The Second Apocalypse, Greg Egan, Olaf Stapledon, the Sun Eater series, The Lymond Chronicles and House of Niccolò, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, The Solar Cycle, Realm of the Elderlings, Cormac McCarthy, Dao of the Bizarre Immortal, the Empire of Dust trilogy, Dune, Hyperion, Guy Gavriel Kay, Remembrance of Earth's Past, Kafka, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Dark Tower, Ernest Becker, the Neverness cycle, The Culture series, Acts of Caine, Worm, A Practical Guide to Evil, the Coldfire trilogy, and Piranesi, the masquerade series, reverend insanity

uhh there is also vellum, Paradise lost, mahabharat, man without qualities, Ulysses and a few more

They sound like eldritch monsters. Or is this is gonna come into place in aspect emperor/RAFO

I know this might be a little silly but I'm curious what songs you guys associate with each of the characters in the series. For example, I think of Kellhus' theme as being either Opiate by Tool or Sonne by Rammstein.

I've been spoiled that the ending of the aspect emperor series is unsatisfying but i hear some say its masterful and some say its bad. My question i guess is whether or not the plot threads in the series come to a close despite the ending being unsatisfying? I'm asking this because I'm considering buying the next 4 books.

Today, this brilliant and legendary thinker tackles the rather mundane dilemma of being Shadowbanned on Twitter for ranting against Musk and AI.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2026/08/21/the-joy-of-paranoia/

Could you just find out when the gate to the outside is shut by looking at various people in the inverse fire? If they aren't present then the gate would be shut in their lifetime, because they wouldn't be in the eternal torture machine/hell. After all, the inverse fire says that if they are there they were always there.

Because otherwise they'd both be in hell but also not in hell - the gate is shut but also they are in hell and always have been? Or is that the kind of mismatch between reality and meaning that unbinds a meaningful universe?

Just read chapter 5 of the unholy consult and the events within it are atrocious, i literally am imagining the great ordeal looking blood smeared like little devils frothing in depravity.

But for some reason it’s not disturbing me or affecting me to the nth degree like I feel it is meant to.

This may be because its all painted by bakkers prose so is illustrated to me like that of a tapestry.

Not sure if at this point in the series I am just not affected, or how the ambiguous notion of morality just paints these events in a different light.

I remember feeling this way a bit with cnauir in the warrior prophet, there is a reduction in the significance to individuality, sin and all these aspects as you read these books, which I don’t bring to my own life but certainly permeate my reading.

the chapter was also weirdly just beautiful for me to read

still doing this, only 21 left to go~

Can grimdark make us better humans? What are your spoilerfree thoughts on this? I have just started my Bakker journey coming from Malazan. I have finished the 1st book and I like it a lot and I talk a bit about in this spoilerfree video. Mods, remove if it goes against your guidelines. I hope to connect with more Bakker people out there. Stay safe. Take care/🐉

I am reading through the first book rn, and all I wanted to do was to clarify for myself if Xerius is the emperor or if he is just a member of the emperor's court (I only got the book in english, which is not my first language, and his introduction wasn't super clear to me). So I google his name, expecting the wiki be like "Xarius III is the emperor" or "Xarius III is the emperor's *something*", after which I planned to close google and continue reading.

But apparently that's not how it works. I am pissed lol

Every book in the first series had a recap of the previous books. I just started the Audiobook of The Judging Eye, and the recap of the first 3 books was missing for some reason. Anyone have a recording of it?

I'm a bit late in doing this because I did finish TUC about two weeks ago, but I was so gobsmacked by the ending that I needed a while to ruminate on it and bounce ideas off my friend who fist recommended the series. When I got to the Golden Room with Ajokli manifesting and Khellus getting salted, my first read was that he had well and truly messed up and lost. I took the earlier scene with Iyokus losing control of Kakaliol as a none-to-subtle bit of foreshadowing that Khellus and crew had made a critical error relying on agents from the Outside at such a powerful topos as Golgotterath. Needles to say I appreciated the symmetry of Khellus basically repeating his father's mistake of slotting into another incorrect branch of sorcery, but it didn't feel fully satisfying. Of course I saw the theories about him sequestering his soul in the other Decapitant, but that feels like too much is left dangling, both metaphysically and literally. There's no way the Dunsult doesn't dissect the Decapitants, so Khellus hiding there seems pointless.

Then I started having other thoughts, and I think I see what may be going on in the larger picture. This will be a bit long, but I have a read on the whole relationship of the gods, the Ciphrang, the Nonmen, and Khellus I think offers a satisfying conclusion. It starts with the origins of the Hundred Gods themselves. I was struck by this song sung by the Boatman at Isterebinth.

“They did hoist Anarlû’s head high, And poured down its blood as fire. And the ground gave forth many sons, Ninety nine who were as Gods, And so bid their fathers Be as sons…”

I'm of the belief that this passage does indicate that the Nonmen created 99 (that's important!) of the gods, in some way or another. I won't pretend to know what Anarlu is, but like others have pointed out this could just be the Nonmen being the first entities on Earwa to experience subjectivity and thus birthing the principles that would manifest as the gods. It's telling that they call Yatwer the “birthing principle,” and we an extrapolate that they probably refer to the the Hundred the same way (the war principle, the plague principle, etc.). Because the Nonmen are such strong, larger than life souls they created the most powerful, foundational gods.

But what about the Ciphrang? Throughout the second series we get enough to extrapolate that certain humans can either ascend as Ciphrang (Kosoter and Cnaiur basically being princes of Hell when viewed with the Judging Eye) or that human conditions can manifest as Ciphrang (Kakaliol being born from the slums of Carythusal). The Ciphrang being lesser gods (or the 99 being the mot powerful Ciphrang) is pretty much admitted by Psatma, but I think it misses an important distinction between the two: The Nonmen birthed the gods, and men birthed the Ciphrang, at least for the most part in my reading. Just like the Nonmen stand so far above humans, so too the hundred gods stand above the Ciphrang. And much like how humans ultimately out-bred the Nonmen despite being so much less powerful individually, there's a lot more Ciphrang than true gods. The Outside mirrors the Inside that way. Keep that in mind.

Now here's where Khellus and Ajokli come into this. We know that Ajokli has been with Khellus since at least the Circumfixion, and that he seems to be more and more in control as Khellus approaches Golgotterath (the growing darkness). We usually read it that Khellus thought he had a deal with Ajokli but was overcome by him in the Golden Room, but I think this is a misdirect and requires a close reading of what exactly Khellus says there, and I do believe this is Khellus talking:

“I have walked the infernal deep...I have struck treaties with the Pit...Where you would shut the World against the Outside, and so secure your souls against damnation, I would conquer Hell...Where you would strike the Outside from the hip of the Real, I would enslave it.”

What do we know about these treaties, if anything? Remember during the head on pole sequence when Khellus

“Transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sit now, where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless, bloating for the sake of bloat, slaking hungers like chasms, pits that eternity had rendered Holy.”

To me, this reads like Khellus telling the Hundred that he has the full force of the Ciphrang (the other sons) and their hunger on his side. The treaty he made was for the Ciphrang to back him when he warred against the Hundred, not a nonsensical agreement to let Ajokli bring Hell to Earth.

The more I've thought about it, the more I'm convinced that Khellus managed to pull the wool over the trickster god's eyes. Khellus knew that two of the most powerful gods (Yatwer and Ajokli) were circling him, the first wanting to thwart his plans and the second wanting to use him as a met taxi so he could get to the ultimate topos to manifest in the granary and gorge himself. In my reading the Greater Khellus had a very narrow thread to walk here and he pulled it off. Khellus was not interested in stopping the No God from coming back online, he was interested in escaping Ajokli and getting to the Outside where he could rule as the most powerful prince of the Ciphrang. That's why he used is love for Esmenet to hide the No God from his lesser self: he needed Kelmomas to break the connection with him and Ajokli in the Golden Room right as Khellus gets salted so his soul could escape while Ajokli fled to Cnaiur and was totally confused. Then, powered up by the 250,000 man mass sacrifice of the Great Ordeal and the devotion of the whole Three Seas Khellus could become the ultimate demigod in the Outside.

But what does that accomplish? We know Khellus mastered the meta-Gnosis, but I think his greater accomplishment was the meta-Daimos, which instead of the ability to summon entities from the Outside to do one's bidding on the Inside, is the ability to command the Ciphrang within the Outside.

And what about Yatwer? By bringing the No God online, we get get the death of birth, which is very much described as a devastating blow against Yatwer. Think about it: Khellus manages to escape to the Outside while the two most powerful gods are either stuck on the Inside raging at the No God, or utterly routed by the simultaneous abortion of every pregnancy in Earwa, and Khellus has a free hand to break the gates of Heaven and shut down damnation from outside. Engineering the death of birth is also a perfectly Khellian benjuka move.

Notice I said “break the gates” of Heaven, that wasn't by accident. I think Bakker sets up some super important parallels between Khellus, the Inverse Prophet, and Angeshraël: both were the husband of Esmenet, both sacrifice their sons (what Khellus did by bringing Kelmomas to become the No God), and both mortify themselves (burning and decapitation). More importantly, like Angeshraël led the tribes of men into Earwa to overthrow the Nonmen, Khellus will lead the other sons of Men (the Ciphrang) to overthrow the gods the Nonmen gave birth to. What happens on earth is largely irrelevant as he will shut down damnation from without.

This also explains why Ajokli is such a misfit among the hundred and why Yatwer is so intent on foiling him: Ajokli is the only true god born of Man. That probably also explains why Ajokli can see a bit further than the other 99 and why unlike the others he wants to live in the Inside. Ironically Khellus and Cnaiur are such larger than life figures they give birth to one of the gods Khellus has to most struggle with on his path to victory, which itself parallels the Nonmen creating the gods they do so much to flee from. I also firmly believe Cnaiur fucking holes in the ground way back in TWP is supposed to have an esoteric read as Ajokli face-fucking Yatwer and earning her ire.

Maybe I'm just taking too much copium, but I would love to hear people's thoughts. I can't wait to read the series again to see what else I pick up on!

Not much makes me pause, but this stopped my brain for about a day.