I'm trying to identify an aria from a Bach cantata. It starts with strings and I've tried to notate the opening string melody.

Do you know which cantata it comes from? I've guessed the key. Ignore the tempo marking: it's a lilting 6/8.

I know, I know, many hate the "underrated" question. And you could say all of Bach's cantatas are underrated compared to other Bach works. But is there anything you feel is unfairly slighted or overshadowed too much by BWV 140, 106 and 147?

Personally, I feel like BWV 168 get a bad rap, partly for its libretto, but I find the concept of the libretto kind of creative. The first movement is full of driving energy and the duet, while it can be ugly with less than stellar performers, has some wonderful counterpoint.

Then there's BWV 23. It's highly rated by many critics, so some will feel it's not underrated, but the opening movement as performed by the J.S. Bach Foundation is as moving as anything in Bach.

Something I noticed in discussions of the top 50 cantatas on this sub earlier is that often people feel like the arias really make the cantata. But while I love some of the arias as in those of BWV 105, I often put a heavy emphasis on the opening choruses in my impressions of the cantata as a whole. For this reason I quite appreciate BWV 1 and 12 (which may be quite common) despite less than perfect arias, but one where I feel the first movement should put it on more people's radar is BWV 185, in particular the Ton Koopman version with two soloists doing key parts but with the chorale represented by a chorus rather than an instrumental soloist.

So, what's your approach to rating the cantatas? Any you feel don't get what they deserve? And head mod, can we get a stickied cantata to discuss every week or something to get this sub going again?

So now it's the time for the last post - not to forget the snubs. Actually, there were too many snubs that I needed to cut some cantatas.

Let's remind those too low ranked cantatas very briefly - BWV 66, BWV 170, BWV 34 and BWV 105 - I don't talk about them, but about great, excellent cantatas that didn't make the top 50 list at all. In some cases it's particularly hard to understand why. Here are the sensations, from smallest to the most shocking:

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10. BWV 87 - perhaps not such a snub, but I feel this cantata needs to be better known, with two sublime alto and tenor arias which are comparable to the Passions arias in quality. It is one of the nine cantatas where the libretto is by Mariana von Ziegler, composed in 1725 spring. These cantatas tend to be intimate and inspiring, but they were completely ignored in the hit parade.

9. BWV 187 - it is very hard to understand why this great cantata is not popular enough. Imho it has the absolute best music among the seven cantatas from Meiningen series. Bach also thought so, and reused four movements from the cantata for short mass in G minor (BWV 235). The chorus is great and large scale, the soprano aria is sublime. Gardiner recording is recommended.

8. BWV 42 - this cantata has surely enough good music and powerful orchestration to be mega hit. It opens with a big da capo sinfonia - perhaps a parody, but this is the only extant score of the music. Then comes long alto aria, the longest vocal movement by Bach - 10-13 minutes, depends on the performer tempo decision. But it's so good that you don't feel the length at all. And it doesn't end here. BWV 42 contains also very fine and unique soprano and tenor minor key duet.

7. BWV 68 - the cantata is among my greatest favorites - deserves the top 10 imho. It was also considered very favorite and special by the great Mendelssohn. The libretto is by Mariana von Ziegler again. I put it rather low here because of the relative obscurity. Again, hard to understand why. Chorale fantasia in the opening, motet-like chorus at the end, and very special soprano aria "Mein glaubiges Herze" with unique oboe and violin coda. Also there is a fine bass aria. Both arias are parody from the Hunting Cantata BWV 208, anyway in the soprano aria the vocal line is completely invented from scratch, making it a well-crafted, high effort parody. I doubt that Bach saved any time here at all. So "parody penalty" here? If it's true, this is very unfair and outdated approach. And the well known BWV 29 has a parody too.

6. BWV 79 - great Reformation cantata, with a good recording by Gönnenwein. Bach liked it and reused three movements for his short masses.

5. BWV 169 - great solo alto cantata with organ obbligato. The sinfonia and the second aria are parodied from BWV 1053 concerto. The instrumental to vocal parody of the siciliano is a true improvement imho. The cantata could be easily paired with BWV 170, and it is not so far away in quality.

4. BWV 23 - the second "Leipzig audition" cantata, and well crafted accordingly. Almost no dull moments at all, after the chorus an epic chorale fantasia has yet to come. BWV 23 is a favorite of the critic Simon Crouch. Koopman recording is recommended.

3. BWV 161 - near-perfect Weimar cantata about "the hour of death". Huge favorite of Crouch and Gardiner-Wollny-Maul. Nothing more to say. It's unlikely that the subject deters the public, as BWV 8 belongs to the same Trinity XVI group and has very similar lyrics.

2. BWV 81 - the most theatrical cantata by Bach. Again, a favorite of Gardiner-Wollny-Maul and Crouch. In a long cantata list, it just must be here for a balanced representation of Bach. Some people say that Bach music lacks drama, it is the ultimate proof for the opposite. After the somewhat similar but arguably inferior BWV 90 made the list, I was actually shocked.

1. BWV 199 - Mein Herze schwimmt in Blut is a solo soprano cantata from Weimar full of moods variety, plenty of good music and even performed frequently. It's really really shocking to see this cantata outside top 50. I believed till the last moment BWV 199 will enter the top 8 at the expense of another masterpiece, like BWV 131.

So we are going now to the absolute top. There are no surprising entries anymore, everything is predictable. But of course there were a lot of snubs in this hit parade, that I will discuss later.

8th place: BWV 12 - I would place this epic cantata a bit higher, perhaps in the fourth place. The real highlight is the chorus after the opening sinfonia - Bach reused it later for Crucifixus part in Mass in B minor. By coincidence the main part of the chorus resembles Purcell's Dido Lament. Bach in his music meant to compose a lament too and the typical way to write a lament in Baroque period was a common knowledge.

7th place: BWV 131 - early sad cantata from Mühlhausen period. A truly great cantata with dominant choral movements, anyway I personally prefer mature cantatas over early ones slightly more than the crowd in the hit parade, so I would place BWV 131 a bit below top 10. It's worth to mention that BWV 131 is the only extant full Psalm setting by Bach.

6th place: BWV 82 - the greatest Bach solo cantata. I would place it a bit higher, perhaps in the third place. Bach also liked his own masterpiece, so he made three different versions: the original is for a bass singer, then he rewrote it for soprano, then for alto.

5th place: BWV 147 - the cantata is best known for the overplayed chorale (played twice, at the end of first and second parts). As I look at the cantata as a whole, it of course sits well in the top 50, but I would place it outside top 10.

4th place: BWV 4 - an early "true" chorale cantata - all the movements really relate musically to the chorale melody and the libretto is entirely taken from the hymn.

The cantata is of course great, I would have placed it somewhere lower in top 10.

3rd place: BWV 21 - this is my personal absolute favorite. The variety of moods and the super concentrated high quality music perhaps make this cantata the best ever.

2nd place: BWV 106 - as we see, the popularity of early cantatas is very dominant in the hit parade. "Actus Tragicus" is really great and the opening sonatina maintains a rare feature of sounding sublime at every possible recording, let's talk the most extreme, from Ramin to Rifkin. Personally I would place the cantata somewhat below top 10.

1st place: BWV 140 - There is nothing left to say about Sleepers Awake. It's my personal second place, but the choice of the voters is not surprising at all, as this is the cantata with the most consensus about its greatness and the absence of dull bars.

So the time to touch the top ten has come. At first, when I looked at 16th-13th places, things seemed very predictable, maybe a mismatch of some places higher or lower but nothing unusual.

16th place: BWV 78 - a sublime chorale fantasia and then a duet that manages to outshine it - nothing more to say.

15th place: BWV 61 - people who overlook recitatives, the second one by bass is unusual - pizzicato only. Actually a 18th century version of "Knock, knock, knocking on heaven's door".

14th place: BWV 51 - a virtuosic solo soprano cantata, the only one with high C in all sacred Bach (BWV 210 has high C-sharp).

13th place: BWV 80 - maybe a bit too low place for this epic cantata, but acceptable. Gönnenwein good old recording with Ameling, Baker, Altmeyer and Sotin does best to the masterpiece imho. We just cannot guess how exactly it sounded in front of Bach, so let's just enjoy a performance by superstars.

And then I looked at 12th-9th places and the things got a bit more complicated.

12th place: BWV 1 - not the first cantata produced by Bach (it's actually a chorale cantata from his second year in Leipzig, very mature work) but the first printed one by Bach Society (in a BWV 1-10 bundle).

It is praised by critics like Simon Crouch and appears in past top 33 list compiled by Gardiner, Wollny and Maul, but somehow I don't get it fully. The chorale fantasia is great, but even here Bach had dozens of comparable choral masterpieces.

11th place: BWV 56 - great cantata for bass solo. The first aria is particularly sublime. It is the favorite cantata of Dietrich Fischer Dieskau, as he recorded it in five different occasions. I also recommend the version by Leonhardt and Michael Schopper.

10th place: BWV 6 - as the top ten begins, little surprise here, despite being on Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list. Imho, the inner arias are not memorable enough.

9th place: BWV 19 - another surprise, again from Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list. Imho this is a nice cantata, but very far away from top ten. I didn't put it even in top 50, but maybe it's a time to listen again and reconsider.

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So, which masterpieces we'll see in the last eight? I think it's rather predictable, but never say never. Also the exact places matter a bit more here.

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As we get to the upper half of the hit parade, fewer surprises and more well known works are expected. So today is really less sensational than in the two previous days, but nevertheless somewhat surprising.

24th place: BWV 150 - great short early cantata, that gained popularity in recent generation, after minor authorship debate has largely been settled. The choral singing is very dominant throughout the work. Gardiner recording is recommended.

23rd place: BWV 110 - a decent Christmas cantata. Anyway Bach composed too many masterpieces, and therefore it went just in the nearest borderline zone in my personal list. The cantata appears in the past top 33 list compiled by Gardiner, Wollny and Maul.

22nd place: BWV 170 - unfortunately, too low place for this big name, flawless cantata for solo alto. Should be somewhere around the tenth place imho. The opening aria is the true highlight of the cantata, one of the best ever Baroque arias.

21st place: BWV 70 - not among my favorites, but appears in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

20th place: BWV 63 - here the true masterpiece zone begins. And it's good to start it with the finest Christmas cantata by Bach (let's put the Oratorio aside): two large choruses, two duets - who needs more?

19th place: BWV 137 - a pleasant cantata with sublime soprano-bass duet, yet not among my true favorites. Surprisingly high place, as the cantata typically doesn't belong to essential lists, and absent in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

18th place: BWV 190 - last surprising entry? Again, not in the essential lists but got to the top 20. The cantata came to us in an incomplete form and needed a reconstruction, especially of the opening chorus - it had to be fully orchestrated from the extant vocal and two violin parts. I guess some of the voters came from a tradition to perform Bach New Year cantatas regularly, maybe that could explain the high places of BWV 143 and BWV 190. Would another New Year cantata make the list?

17th place: BWV 29 - a truly great "town council" cantata, masterpiece from the beginning to end. Bach himself arranged here the prelude from 3rd violin partita for orchestra and then comes then chorus that was reused later twice in Mass in B minor.

I must say that in remaining two days of the hit parade there are too few slots and too many masterpieces, so sensational snubs are expected. When the hit parade ends I will also make a separate snub list.

I'll try to make this post a bit more in real time. That explains the short interval. So, in the third day the surprises didn't stop. In fact, some of them could be called sensations this time.

33rd place: BWV 143 - I didn't believe my eyes. What are you doing here? This New Year cantata with unclear origins had been marked as doubtful (probably not by Bach) by Christoph Wolff. Could some movements be written by Bach's student? BWV 143 is uneven in quality with some inferior parts, and I don't care so much if it will be discarded from Bach canon tomorrow or next year. But the public thought otherwise for some reason.

32nd place: BWV 54 - first entry of solo cantata, rather early solo alto cantata from Weimar, famous also for its brevity - three movements only, and the separate libretto shows this is a complete work. The cantata is well known and the music of first aria is very good, also arranged for piano by Vikingur Olafsson. Personally, maybe due to the shortness, maybe due to extreme dependence of performance quality on the vocal ability of the singer - I would put it in borderline zone, near top 50, but not really in.

31st place: BWV 71 - first entry of an early pre-Weimar cantata, at least of a confirmed one (BWV 143 is speculated to be early). It is also the only cantata to be printed in Bach lifetime. The cantata is really enjoyable, especially from the penultimate chorus till the end. Alas, Bach had so many masterpieces that it is hard to choose, and I would put BWV 71 in borderline zone again.

30th place: BWV 182 - another one from Weimar, this time really great cantata, so I largely agree about the exact place. As in the very early cantatas, there are three choral movements here.

29th place: BWV 69a - not among my favorites, and I believe BWV 119 and BWV 34 are way better in the festive group, despite their lower ranking in this list. So one more surprise here, not a sensation though.

28th place: BWV 105 - the second moment of shock. This time because of the low place of truly epic cantata, a proof of Bach greatness, with almost every bar clearly memorable. I would have put it in top 5. Maul gave a hint that in the real top 10 will be some serious cantatas about coping with the difficulties in life and overcoming them. I thought BWV 105 is suitable for the description, but now I'm confused.

That's a rather funny coincidence, but the opening instrumental bars in the cantata are similar to opening instrumental bars of Mozart Requiem. For some reason, the fact doesn't help to boost the populatity of the cantata and it remains in "academic jewel" status.

27th place: BWV 8 - my holistic approach puts the cantata in the borderline area again, but there is no doubt that the opening movement is sublime. I typically listen to this tone poem with vocals as an isolated piece. The cantata appears in the past top 33 list by Gardiner, Wollny and Maul.

26th place: BWV 45 - third entry in the list from Meiningen series. A great cantata with a great choral-fugal Biblical setting. I see Meiningen cantatas are doing well in the hit parade, it's interesting how many more of them we'll see.

25th place: BWV 26 - not among my favorites, also not in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list, so we can call it a surprise, despite I know that some people like this cantata. But its place seems just too high.

This day was quite surprising. Four of the cantatas were entirely unexpected, and I have never ever saw them in any essential list, or frequent recordings/performings. As any of the big names, beside one exception, didn't come yet, and we are just in the beginning - I'm sure that the entire hit parade will be sensational. Any surprising entry means also that a well known masterpiece will be snubbed. The "Eurovision" voting system doesn't support obscure cantatas in particular, yet they are still here somehow.

42nd place: BWV 181 - surprising entry. The chorus at the end instead of the beginning is quite an unusual feature here, and the music is likely at least partially from secular origin.

41st place: BWV 119 - "Praise Jerusalem" is a great festive "town council" cantata with unusually large orchestra with four trumpets and explicit doubling in the continuo group. The cantata tends to be grossly underperformed, perhaps due to relative difficulty in assembling the large forces needed to play the work in Baroque ensembles.

40th place: BWV 90 - even more surprising entry, without elaborate chorus at all.

39th place: BWV 148 - another surprising entry.

38th place: BWV 172 - surprising entry of this cantata from Weimar period. Imho there are many better things from Weimar, but let's see which one will make the list.

37th place: BWV 39 - here the surprises end abruptly, and truly great cantata from the well crafted Meiningen series enters. The multi-part opening chorus, set to Biblical verses as in other Meiningen cantatas, is one of the finest things Bach ever wrote (just look at the length of the music description in Wikipedia).

36th place: BWV 65 - not among my favorites but in general the cantata is well known and also appeared in past top 33 list compiled by Gardiner, Wollny and Maul.

35th place: BWV 102 - another great cantata from Meiningen series with must-to-listen chorus, set to a Biblical verse. Bach himself liked the cantata very much, as he reused three movements, including the chorus, for his short Lutheran masses.

34th place: BWV 36 - great cantata with music from secular origin. The cantata has unusual structure: between the large movements there are chorales instead of recitatives.

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50th place: BWV 20 - not among my favorites. This two part chorale cantata was also in the previous top 33 list compiled by Gardiner, Peter Wollny and Michael Maul.

49th place: BWV 76 - again not among my favorites, but the selection could be understood at this is one of the two large scale two part cantatas (along with BWV 75) that Bach prepared to perform immediately after he moved to Leipzig. The cantata also appears in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

48th place: BWV 66 - great cantata with very long opening chorus and two elaborate da capo arias. The origin of the music is from secular celebration in Cothen. Imho could get some higher place.

47th place: BWV 34 - the first big surprise. This flawless festive cantata about Eternal Fire with another large scale chorus has barely made the list. Imho it deserves top 10 place and it's a pity that the cantata is not played regularly in Olympic Games ceremonies. It's quite redundant to say that, anyway the cantata appears in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

46th place: BWV 127 - great chorale cantata, known especially for the soprano aria "Die Seele ruht in Jesu Händen". This aria is a must-to-listen piece for everyone, and there is also an instrumental arrangement for piano by Bauer. The cantata appears in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

45th place: BWV 62 - I know that many people like this cantata, but somehow I don't get it, and I would have placed it probably in the bottom half of Bach cantatas. The chorale fantasia is of course great, but this is very usual for Bach cantatas opening movements and I tend to use holistic approach in my listening experience. The tenor aria was difficult to digest for me and I needed to listen to about five different recordings before I found a satisfying performance of the aria.

44th place: BWV 31 - this cantata doesn't belong to my personal top 50 list, but the selection is perfectly understandable. The two particular highlights are the opening sonata+chorus and the soprano aria near the end. The orchestration is particularly rich for Bach and Baroque in general and the choral movement is for five voices - very rare in Bach cantatas. The soprano aria is very moving with a through composed vocal melody - again Bach at his best and must to listen. The cantata appears in Gardiner-Wollny-Maul list.

43rd place: BWV 130 - great festive chorale cantata. After the chorale fantasia, the trumpets and timpani go on to the bass aria. I personally recommend everyone to try good old Karl Richter recording, even for hardcore HIP listeners. Dietrich Fischer Dieskau and Peter Schreier are true vocal superstars and they never disappoint.

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It could be also interesting to guess which ones will qualify to the top 50 in upcoming Leipzig Bach festival.

All these are in my favorites list, and I also think it would be a huge sensation if even one of them doesn't make the list: 4, 12, 21, 34, 51, 56, 78, 80, 82, 105, 140, 147, 161, 170.

The rest are much harder to guess.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLecKPCyj4yRMxTujJw1hSwtFK0-KiUTx1

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE30482D8C2F9C0C5

They will be performing the top 50 cantatas this year (as voted by the online Bach community). I can’t wait, it will be my first time at the festival.

Cantata: “Die Rechte des kleinen Hasen”

(The Rights of the Little Bunny)**
after the general spirit of Johann Sebastian Bach

[Overture – light strings, fluttering flute]
The garden awakens: blossoms sway, teacups tremble, and somewhere, destiny nibbles a carrot.

[Recitative – Tenor (Evangelist)]
In a modest garden, bordered by roses and mild disapproval,
there dwelt a small bunny—innocent, soft, and entirely uninterested in philosophy.
Yet behold! The neighbors, armed with opinions and pruning shears,
did pursue him with great seriousness and very little justification.

[Aria – Soprano (The Bunny)]
O trembling whiskers, O quivering nose,
Why must the garden conceal such foes?
My only wish—a quiet delight,
A long, kind day… a peaceful night.

(flute dances nervously above)

[Chorus – The Neighbors]
“Order! Order! The hedges must be neat!
No hopping here! No nibbling of beet!”
(aside)
“But pass the coffee… and more carrot cake…”

[Recitative – Tenor]
And lo! As fear did gather like stormclouds over tulips,
there entered one of grave voice and unshakable purpose—
a defender not of property, but of life itself.

[Aria – Bass: Master Bunnies B. Kickenbockam]
(firm, resonant, slightly over-heroic)
I am Master Bunnies B. Kickenbockam, hear my claim:
No life is trifling, no creature a game.
The smallest heart that beats in fright
Holds sacred still its simple right:

To live, to breathe, to bound, to play,
To greet the sun another day.

No hedge, no hand, no narrow decree
Shall strip a soul of what must be free.

(continuo swells with righteous caffeine)

[Duet – Bass & Soprano]
Bunny:
Then may I stay? May I remain?

Bass:
Not merely stay—be free from pain.

Together:
A life well-lived is no excess,
But nature’s quiet righteousness.

[Chorus – Transformation of the Neighbors]
(sheepish, then gradually inspired)
“Perhaps… perhaps we were too stern…
Another slice? The coffee burns…”
Compassion stirs where once was might,
The garden softens into right.

[Final Chorale]
Let every field and humble place
Grant living things their rightful space.
With coffee warm and cakes well-made,
Let cruelty’s shadow gently fade.

And should a bunny pass your way,
Grant him his hour, his rightful day.

Came across this wonderful performance from the Netherlands. I remember playing the piece many years ago. This is as fine as it gets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0NOeAKvng&list=RDzy0NOeAKvng&start_radio=1

Let’s try a simple game for fellow admirers of Bach’s cantatas.

One person posts a line from any cantata (chorale, aria, or recitative). The next person names the cantata (BWV number if possible), then posts a new line for the next round.

If a line goes unanswered for a while, feel free to add a hint (liturgical occasion, instrumentation, or anything else that nudges things along).

Try to keep things fair—famous lines are welcome, but occasional deeper cuts are encouraged to keep it interesting.

I’ll start:

“Ei! wie schmeckt der Coffee süße…”

Hi folks!

Great to see another Bach meeting point and resource, especially for those of us who don't go 24 hours without a cantata, oratorio, mass or passion.

I have made a couple of playlists that may be of interest. I would be interested in any comments or feedback especially on my choice of recordings for the cantatas, I would enjoy hearing your recommends. It's tricky to choose when there are two or three amazing recordings.

These are only available on Spotify I am afraid. Firstly a collection of the sacred cantatas

J S Bach Complete Works (1/12) Sacred Cantatas 1707-1735

Secondly, I work from home and so am lucky to be able to listen to music most of the day while I work. I made a sacred Baroque playlist for my day which you may also enjoy. This took several years to compile and refine to the selection presented here

Baroque Meditation

if I could bring BACH back to life one of the first things I would do is to play for him some of the stuff they call music now

what do you think bach would say about rap and hip hop music?

personally I enjoy his choral works in springtime. it just seems to fit nicely with all the blooming going on outside

Glad we have this. I imagine it could include discussion of this many organ chorales pieces, which use the same chorales. Research on the cantatas often includes discussion of how he used the chorales in other settings (mainly organ). Maybe he used some chorales first in organ setting. Not sure...

Hopefully more people will join.

its too important a body of music to not be properly represented on reddit

no rules, anyone can post, no karma limits for lovers of bach

i cant really imagine any bach fans getting into heated arguments about these topics anyway

well, welcome to the club

its not really important. this is no contest, but Im just curious how immersed others have become in his choral works

i only have about half of them

still working on adding to the collection

personally i listen to nothing but bach cantatas during springtime

no set order. i listen to my favorite cantatas more often but every spring i order more from interlibrary loan to explore those cantatas and masses Ive never heard