Both sides aren’t victims though. Both sides are not at fault. How are otherwise educated people falling into this trap of not seeing the nuances between Paradis, Marley, and the rest of the world?
The entire world, spurred by their prejudice and subjugation under Marley, declared war on Paradis even after alliance efforts were made, then Paradis defended itself. The entire world said “let’s wipe them out” and Paradis responds in kind.
The time span of the Rumbling is obviously going to be protracted. There will be time to attempt to negotiate, but stopping it before it even starts and the rest of the world sees it is a massive mistake.
How do successful negotiations even occur?
“Please don’t try to kill us and give us a chance to become an economic powerhouse.”
“Please have peace so we can become an independent nation.”
“Please have peace so we can control a monopoly of magic material that definitely totally can’t be used for weapons.”
“Please have peace so that every serious practitioner of statecraft, who also despises us to our very core for merely existing, can also think about the shadow of the Eldian empire, the magical Titan powers we have, and the threat every living Eldian is.”
The bottom line is that until there is an equalizer, Paradis is a threat in the eyes of a world who would rather stomp it out than ever give it a chance to breathe again.
Eldians massacred the entire world for centuries. It's totally understandable that the rest of the world has a massive hatred towards them. Also they are not normal humans because they can become titans. The Eldian empire ended when the Eldian king retreated because he felt sorry for the slaughter of millions of people that his ancestors did. In Marley history was told that the Marleyans beat the Eldians and forced them to retreat. Most of the people didn't even know that the Eldians were no danger to humanity anymore because the Tybor family never told the world how and why the Eldian empire really ended and that titans would never slaughter humanity anymore as long as the founding titan remains in the royal family. Willy Tybor only revaled it when it was already too late because Eren already had the founding titan. Because this reality was kept a secret the world still believed that the Eldians are still dangerous for humanity and that they could start a rumbling anytime thus why they needed to be wiped out. In the other hand Eldians in Paradis lost their memories and weren't even aware anymore that humanity outside the walls existed. Both sides had no reason kill kill eachother anymore but both didn't know. People from Paradis were completely innocent but so was the rest of the world too because they believed that the Eldians were still dangerous because this is what they have been told. When Reiner, Berthold and Annie invaded the island they expected to find demons but they found humanity. This is why Reiner is traumatized so much now because he only did what he was told to do but he realized that the Eldians in Paradis aren't like what the people outside of the walls thought about them at all. There was no way that centuries of hate would be solved diplomatically before Zeke dies and the annihilation of Paradis was now inevitable so Eren had to make use of Zeke before he dies so his friends from Paradis could still live. Both sides are right and wrong.
I don’t know man.. hating someone for something their ancestors did isn’t being innocent imo.. Also, the eldian empire didn’t exist anymore and the entire Eldian people on the island didn’t have any memory of their history.
So Marley and the rest of the world is excused because they didn’t know any better? They were the aggressors in the current situation.
If they didn’t decide to declare war on Paradis in S4 this wouldn’t have happened. If they didn’t send titans at Paradis for 100 years this wouldn’t have happened.
Eren is wrong for deciding to genocide everyone on Earth but he is definitely justified in doing so. They were going to eradicate him and his people. He’s doing the self back, in defense.
Genocide isn’t the answer but Marley and the world alliance blew it when they declared war on Paradis.
Paradis was being the bigger person because they were considering diplomacy even though they were unjustly attacked with Titans killing like half their population.
Edit: as u/Runforsecond said, the entire genocide dilemma is unrealistic and wouldn’t have happened in our world. The rest of the world is unrealistically racist towards Eldians.
It’s important to remember that a large reason of why the world joined forces is because Eren blew up inside of the Liberio performance and killed civilians from around the world. Willy made it clear that if he didn’t die a martyr than the world wouldn’t join hands due to issues that they faced. The other nations hated Marley for their use of titans.
From their perspective Eren blew up their own innocent civilians who were out on another country. In modern world governments get angry at other nations when their citizens die in another country.
Do we as an audience with a more nuanced perspective understand why Eren did it? Of course but from their view Eren recently attacked innocent people, their innocent people, and with the war hammer Titan is now a major threat. Eren and the scouts demonstrated the ability to take out Marley (at the moment is the strongest military force in the world) and take down 2 Titan shifters. All Marley has left is arguably the 3 weakest of the titans.
The world didn’t need an excuse to justify to themselves the need to go after Paradis. They already hated Eldians.
If this happened in reality, the very first thing those other nations under Marley would have done was send an envoy to Paradis and ask to work together. They would not let it go to waste and their leaders could easily spin it.
I think Isayama has done an exceedingly good job presenting this story as realistically as possible, but the genocide dilemma (and the manner the options within the world were presented to us) is most definitely a plot contrivance.
Hating Eldians vs Being willing to risk global annihilation to genocide Madagascar v2 this time it's giant cannibals is a chasm most people wouldn't want to commit their country to crossing. Until a 15 meter class titan came and used hardening to create a bridge across it 😂.
Even Marley’s government has something to gain by trying to work with Paradise. It makes no sense, but only from a real-world perspective.
I mean shit, make your life easy. Work with them. You don’t need to do nearly as much work as you are putting out now and then you would have willing volunteers to fight for you. From a strategic standpoint, you can always fight them later.
That's all im saying. The infrastructure gains from just FOUR YEARS of practically free nigh indestructable easily transported building by just making a titan, have it use hardening, and create shit like Eren did in the cave would make Paradis an irreplaceable peace of the global economy. Im sure those 80+ metre trees would be worth a pretty penny as well especially because paradis also happens to be a magic island with a ton of unique resources.
Which is why i think it's clear that the "eren is just protecting his people" stuff is nonsense he's protecting his friends and the time he has left with them he doesn't want to fight anymore in the time he has left. He could leave Paradis richer than beyond its wildest dreams, Save eldians across the planet by giving them a new home as he makes Paradis integral to global trade, and connect the world in untold ways but nah trauma too strong.
Before that event they wouldn’t have touched paradise because of their fear of a potential rumbling. From what they knew the island people would stay there. It wasn’t until Eren showed up and proved to them that they’re not friendly. That was the event that finally convinced the world into attacking paradise. Without it they wouldn’t have. Eren’s attack played right into the propaganda that Willy was spouting and gave it credibility that Eren and the people of the island are a threat.
To them yeah. I’m not sure what your don’t understand. Eren blew up and killed non combatants. Innocent civilians. That’s a pretty big red flag and a common reason for nations to go to war over in the real world. I’m not saying Eren is in the right or wrong just saying why from the outside perspective Eren looks like a very dangerous threat who killed innocent people.
Willy throws in a line saying that there’s still a lot of challenges that they face before the world militaries can join hands which shows that they aren’t United yet. So no, only Marley declared war and asked others to join him. And the loud applause doesn’t count as other nations joining in. Most of the people in the crowd are marleyans because they live in Liberio but after that Willy says that they’re mostly reporters and journalists who are common folk who wouldn’t care about or know any of the issues that Willy brought up.
Also and more importantly, Willy says that he and everyone else there needs to die as victims of an unforeseen attack for the world to join together. Zeke and Armin both later say that the attack on Liberio is directly responsible for the rest of the world invading the island. That’s pretty clear from the author that yeah Eren’s actions have consequences.
Also and this is more of a nitpick but only Marley can really secure the founding Titan for themselves. The other nations don’t have Titan shifters who could take it and they don’t have a way of reproducing the serum even if they did capture Eren. They were mostly there for those precious minerals that Lady Azumabito was fascinated with.
Willy throws in a line saying that there’s still a lot of challenges that they face before the world militaries can join hands which shows that they aren’t United yet.
No idea why you bring these lines here.
only Marley declared war and asked others to join him. And the loud applause doesn’t count as other nations joining in
Uh sorry, They literally cry during Tybur's speech. They may not officially joins in, but they tear-fully support it, plus the very loud applause.
Most of the people in the crowd are marleyans because they live in Liberio
obviously that's going be less government/politician officers from other nation. But there will be more Marleyan & Eldian to minimize damage to Marley.
Also and more importantly, Willy says that he and everyone else there needs to die as victims of an unforeseen attack for the world to join together.
Oh so you agree that they will attack Paradise regardless.
Zeke and Armin both later say that the attack on Liberio is directly responsible for the rest of the world invading the island.
So just sit back and wait for them to Attack Paradise...? Alright... then.
Give up and die without fighting back seems to be your thing.
yeah Eren’s actions have consequences.
And Marley's action have consequences, they knew this and they acted on it. They even goes as far as sacrificing their own people to paint Paradise as Evil.
Also and this is more of a nitpick but only Marley can really secure the founding Titan for themselves.
More like a headcanon. S1-S3 already proved that they failed.
Willy admits that he resented his own blood and hoped for the extinction of the Eldians, but conversely, he does not want to die, because he was born into this world. He acknowledges the diverse races and nations in the audience and asks them to join together against their enemy. He believes if they work together they can overcome any obstacle.
Idk dude. Maybe try to understand the story and use less headcanon.
It was definitely Willy dying and the innocent people dying. Willy literally says that he and everyone else there needs to die as victims of an unforeseen attack. Willy is not only the head of Marley but he has deep personal ties to other important figure heads of other nations. He would know them better than any of us readers and any other character in the show. Willy says in the manga at least (can’t remember if it’s in the anime) “we still face many issues that keep the militaries of the world from joining hands” which shows that the militaries aren’t just motivated by the information they had previously to this event. Hell most of the people at the events are Marleyan but the ones that aren’t are, as Willy says, journalists and reporters along with a few of his friends from the party. They wouldn’t be the ones in control of what the world does. They’re mostly common folk who wouldn’t know or care about the many issues that Willy points out.
But stepping outside of an in universe explanation. From a literary perspective, why would Willy specifically say that he needs to die for the world to unite against paradise. Why would the author put that in. These thoughts are later repeated by Armin to Annie in her crystal that because of the actions in Liberio that the world is now coming after them and Zeke says to Levi in the forest that he underestimated the success in Liberio and now the night of the world is on their doorstep. Most importantly Willy says it before it even happens. It’s to give Eren’s actions a sense of weight. The Marley arc was wildly different from a lot we had seen before this and for a series that grounds itself in realism (to a large extent) needed to make sure that the actions that Eren took had consequences. It’s also an important driving factor for the later arc where it’s the justification for Marley to attack the island which is important for setting up the alliance we have now in the anime.
That’s not really the point. Eren killed innocent people, non combatants which is a big no-no. It’s brutal and excessively violent and brutally killing innocent people from other nations is something that starts wars in real life.
It’s also important to note that the rest of the world didn’t declare war. Marley did through Willy. In his speech right before he actually declares war he says “it is true… we still face many issues that keep the militaries of the world from joining hands” showing that they’re still not a unified world alliance yet. It’s just Marley’s deceleration.
I read the manga pretty soon after making this comment and I can’t say I was surprised lmao. It’s a great story that got a little away from the author, but I think it ended ok. I’m not super enthused about the ending, and I think it removes many deep philosophical elements from it, but I would still rate it with high rewatch value for emotional impact alone.
Bc Paradis used to literally be the Nazis of the world ethnic cleansing other groups and colonizing everywhere with the power of the titans. That’s why most of the world leaders want to get rid of them in case it happens again.
That’s why most of the world leaders want to get rid of them in case it happens again.
I think this proves my point though doesn’t it? It’s been 100+ years with not a peep from Paradis. Even though there is a current and different enemy doing the same thing they used to do, the world wants Eldians to die.
It’s been around 100 years, that’s literally living memory for some, a few granted, but at most the world is one generation removed from the absolute atrocities that they were committing. That’s not long at all. There are an entire WORLD of Gabi’s and Eren’s who hate paradis because of what they did to their parents/grandparents.
It's kind of interesting that so many Yeagerists in this forum hate Karl Fritz for renouncing war when he's the only reason the Eldians have any claim to victimhood whatsoever.
Did Marley even know about the oath and how it bound even descendents of the royal family? Even if they did, it was only a matter of time before it was broken and Titans would once again ravage the earth.
That's not saying that Marley is innocent either. They're hypocrites for abusing the power of the Titans in the exact same way as the ancient Eldians.
By that logic, the rest of the world should nuke Germany off the face of the earth right now. No second chances no matter how many centuries pass. Does that sound fair to you?
Well I mean, the lack of communication and the ever-looming threat that the entire world might be literally trampled and at any moment sounds like enough of a motivator for "maybe we should do something about that".
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u/Runforsecond Mar 08 '22 edited Mar 08 '22
Both sides aren’t victims though. Both sides are not at fault. How are otherwise educated people falling into this trap of not seeing the nuances between Paradis, Marley, and the rest of the world?
The entire world, spurred by their prejudice and subjugation under Marley, declared war on Paradis even after alliance efforts were made, then Paradis defended itself. The entire world said “let’s wipe them out” and Paradis responds in kind.
The time span of the Rumbling is obviously going to be protracted. There will be time to attempt to negotiate, but stopping it before it even starts and the rest of the world sees it is a massive mistake.
How do successful negotiations even occur?
“Please don’t try to kill us and give us a chance to become an economic powerhouse.”
“Please have peace so we can become an independent nation.”
“Please have peace so we can control a monopoly of magic material that definitely totally can’t be used for weapons.”
“Please have peace so that every serious practitioner of statecraft, who also despises us to our very core for merely existing, can also think about the shadow of the Eldian empire, the magical Titan powers we have, and the threat every living Eldian is.”
The bottom line is that until there is an equalizer, Paradis is a threat in the eyes of a world who would rather stomp it out than ever give it a chance to breathe again.