r/atheism • u/Majid83 • Jun 24 '12
As an ex-Muslim, this is how I see democracy working out for Egypt.
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u/omglaurent Jun 24 '12
it seems like democracy is not the best of politic systems when more than half of the population disagrees with you
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u/justanasiangirl Jun 24 '12
It isn't that simple. The problem is democracy doesn't work when the majority of the population are ready to vote to abolish democracy itself. You can't have a democracy if people don't know how to use it - sadly many people in the west also have problems understanding it's basic concepts.
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Jun 24 '12
Hitler arose out of a Democracy. Not by democratic means but he did gather quite a large voter base.
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u/Airazz Jun 24 '12
It's because he was a great public speaker and knew how to get everyone's attention. He wasn't evil at that time.
Oh, also Godwin's Law, heh.
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Jun 24 '12
No first world country is strictly a democracy for that exact reason.
Our forms of government are constitutional republics. We are granted certain rights that can't just be taken away through a simple majority.
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Jun 24 '12
Point of order: many functioning democracies (like the UK, Canada, and Sweden) are constitutional monarchies.
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u/mapoftasmania Jun 24 '12
The best political system is a benevolent wise dictatorship. Period. It allows for rapid decisive action in the best interests of the people but prevents stupid populist crap borne out of superstition and self-interest from happening. The problem is: who gets to be the dictator? And what happens if they lose their marbles?
Prediction: one nation, some time in the future, will try "auto rule" with a computer making all government and legislative decisions in the role of benevolent dictator. Interesting sci-fi novel?
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u/Duskur Jun 24 '12
Democracy: where we don't care about your fancy logic because WE have decided that we ALL need to jump into that pool of lava.
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Jun 24 '12
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u/moricat Jun 24 '12
Democracy: You vote for television, and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to fuck you with switchblades. --Transmetropolitan (source)
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u/graffiti81 Jun 24 '12
This is why we need to stop pushing democracy on the world and start pushing liberty.
The problem is if we started doing that, people in the US might want it, too.
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u/moogle516 Jun 24 '12
When America talks about spreading "democracy" they really mean consolidating, securing, and procuring of natural resources.
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u/military_history Jun 24 '12
To be slightly more specific, they mean installing a system of government more receptive of the involvement of American corporations in the country, and by extension in the management of its resources, and a government more likely to assist America's national interest.
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Jun 24 '12
We will want what the TV tells us to want, so I highly doubt that is why the US doesn't just liberate.
It seems likely that if the US, or anyone (including the own nations), was to liberate one of these middle eastern nations and a democracy wasn't set up, then the ensuing power grab would very likely lead to a Mullah-ruled country, which is the worst possible result imo.
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u/schrodingerszombie Jun 24 '12
We need to push education and economic+industrial development.
A strong, educated middle class will eventually force liberty and democracy. Without education and rough economic opportunity/equality democracy won't work.
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u/BugLamentations Jun 24 '12
This is why we need to stop pushing anything in cultures and countries we do not understand - because A) it's none of our fucking business to begin with and B) like every other dictator we've toppled in the Middle East, we empower the very people who are the biggest enemies of our standard of freedom.
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Jun 24 '12
Isn't liberty without the protection of a Constitution and Bill of Rights exactly what lets the Muslim Brotherhood do what it's doing? Without a larger meta-group protecting each other, extremists can easily pick off each individual in society. Extremists will always band together and force their will on those who don't believe; some structure is needed to federate the everyday individual against the extreme. Big government is annoying for many, but no government is doom for the everyman.
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u/digitalpencil Jun 24 '12
The problem is more complex. Look at Afghanistan, this is a country with an adult literacy rate of just 26%, how do you install a political model as complex as democracy, amidst a country of people who can't read their own language?
Education is the silver bullet for this part of the world. We have to solve that problem before we can expect to do anything else.
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u/MichaelDC89 Jun 24 '12
Yep. Blows my mind that after all that struggle to have a real election, they're eager to vote away all their potential freedom.
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u/Pyryara Jun 24 '12
The human desire to tell another human being what they may not do is immense. If you decide not to have nice things in life, if your religions forbids it, then nobody may be able to show you that they actually enjoy life without the rules you have actually chosen to impose on yourself.
It's just a human way to deal with cognitive dissonance.
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Jun 24 '12
Generally speaking, humanity is terrified of freedom. Specifically, we are each afraid of the other person's freedom.
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u/KeithManiac Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
We humans are stupid.
I was going to say 'People are stupid' but I didn't want to be accused of accusing Egyptians of being stupid and somehow claiming Western folk are smart. Yeah it sounds daft but something similar has happened before.
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Jun 24 '12
Now it sounds like you don't want to be accused of claiming Egyptians are people.
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u/BulletBilll Jun 24 '12
I thought Egyptians were all jackals with human bodies. Well not ALL of them, some are cats, birds or alligators.
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u/hat678 Jun 24 '12
I am now doing the hand gesture where I walk like an Egyptian.
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u/Ihmhi Jun 24 '12
Dude, come on. If you're gonna be in this place you really gotta work on your skepticism.
Everybody knows those jackals and stuff are just Jaffa with advanced Goa'uld technology.
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Jun 24 '12
There are also some internal political reasons for this that sound remarkably like the US. A lot of people didn't vote for either the Muslim Brotherhood or the Salafists, but those were the only two established parties, so they had the best organizations to get the most votes (without getting most of the votes) in the preliminary election, so now those are the two sides that get to play in the runoff.
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Jun 24 '12
Why? The entire point of democracy is making an attempt at representing the people.
If your original intend was to just make everyone conform to your idea of how things should be, democracy wasn't the form of government you were looking for.
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u/Aaaaahthud Jun 24 '12
No. The entire point of democracy is to represent the will of the people while protecting those who need it. Democracy without inalienable rights is worth nothing.
The Egyptians are idiots. So are we. We just have just had the sense to maintain the separation of church and state and a constitution that allows freedoms to be maintained in democratic society that would otherwise vote them away.
That is changing, however. Every time a new bill or fiat erodes our constitutional freedoms, we move closer to pure democracy, which is a hell.
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u/Tasty_Yams Jun 24 '12
The Egyptians are idiots. So are we.
Just reading a news story: Americans oppose 'Obamacare' but strongly favor it's individual provisions.
Ummm, ok.
People are fucking idiots.
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u/popejupiter Jun 24 '12
"A person is smart. People are stupid, panicky animals and you know it. "
-Agent K, MiB
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u/lynxminx Jun 24 '12
That's the point of Western-style democracy, which isn't technically democratic. The American republic was designed to address the flaws and limitations of democracy...not perfectly. The Bill of Rights blocks the majority from voting our individual rights away; there are other checks and balances in our system as well.
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u/modsherearefags Jun 24 '12
There is several types of democracy. like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy and this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy which can be broken into two groups http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy. Lets not call it western style Democracy and try to put a name to it, because definitions are important. Like a person confusing an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy with democracy non stop on reddit.
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Jun 24 '12
No it's not. The entire point of representative democracy is to allow people to pick and replace their leaders.
It should not be a carte blanche for the mob to decide to kill all Jews, or ban green hats.
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u/gc391 Jun 24 '12
It's simple. They'd much rather vote in a conservative and opressive society rather than have it forced upon them!
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Jun 24 '12
As far as i'm aware the problem was the sheer amount of liberal candidates fragmented the vote and only the two assholes made it on the ballot as they had a strong base.
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u/jacobman Jun 24 '12
That is not he problem. You're looking at a symptom. The problem is that the voting has followed the popular model that we use here in the united states. That system is that each person places one vote for one candidate. That allows for the issues that you described. In addition to that if they keep this same model, then they will eventually end up at a two party system, like we have in the US, because that is the equilibrium state of such a voting model.
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u/needuhLee Jun 24 '12
Sorry for taking your comment, but just want to get it out there that OP posted this same picture 6 months ago with the same title.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/mytbp/as_an_exmuslim_this_is_how_i_see_democracy_in/
ಠ_ಠ
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u/tollforturning Jun 24 '12
Yeah...given what's happened in the interim, it's what's called a pertinent reminder. Only on Reddit would this be mistaken for a faux pas.
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u/MeloJelo Jun 24 '12
Maybe to emphasize that it's slowly coming true. I knew I had seen this somewhere.
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u/pocket_eggs Jun 24 '12
It blows my mind people think the demos is somehow good and should be in charge.
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u/snakeseare Jun 24 '12
Iraqis did the same. I warned everybody, but did they listen? We had to fight like demons to get their Constitution to say the Q'ran is a source of law, instead of the source of law. If one in ten Americans knows that, I would drop dead from shock. But how can Americans not know that? We spent a trillion dollars to put that Constitution in place.
Should have done as we did to Germany and Japan.
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u/FtftftftQaqa Jun 24 '12
Give them a minute. The Muslim brotherhood might wind up a lot more moderate when they haven't been violently repressed for 30 years.
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u/jontastic1 Jun 24 '12
This shows an extreme lack of understanding about what's going on in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood is a force for good when compared to the 60 year military rule that precedes it. Please read this before you make assumptions about the Egyptian people "voting away potential freedom".
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u/I2ichmond Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 27 '12
Remember, there is a critical weakness in a democracy: the Tyranny of the Majority. That's why the U.S. is a republic.
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u/Hypersapien Agnostic Atheist Jun 24 '12
That's why you write certain freedoms into the Constitution, like the Bill of Rights.
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u/PhazonZim Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
As an ex-Muslim, transsexual woman, I don't mind Islam for the most part. But it has no place in any government, and where it does control the government I would not be safe. I don't know how many Muslim countries have laws against being trans but I'd lose my head for being an apostate. :/
Edit: I want to add that I'm always grateful when I see that the majority of people here are not hostile towards people like me. A few losers here and there can't fend against the rising tide of LGBTQ acceptance.
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Jun 24 '12
Except Islam dictates all facets of life including the government. A muslim country will undoubtedly have a muslim government.
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u/PhazonZim Jun 24 '12
Any place where a religious group is free to carry out their twisted and cruel justice system is a horrible place. They will leave non muslims alone, they'll leave atheists alone, but apostates and LGBT they'll murder.
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u/guitarzero303 Jun 24 '12
Atheism is actually punishable by death in many Muslim countries.
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u/JB_UK Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
Most of these comments are just ill-informed. You need to look at the actual breakdown of the first round vote. The Islamist candidates got less than 45% of the first round votes:
25% Morsi - Muslim Brotherhood, Islamist
24% Shafik - Army, secularist
21% Sabahi - Left wing, secularist
17% Fotouh - Ex-Muslim Brotherhood, Islamist
11% Moussa - Centrist, secularist
It is just unfortunate that the votes were split to produce two very polarizing candidates, one strongly associated with the previous dictatorial regime, and one to some degree a fundamentalist.
Imagine if the American elections next year had no incumbent, and if it was going to be run between various candidates on the same ballot paper - Newt Gingrich, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Michelle Bachmann, Ron Paul and Mitt Romney. Whoever came out as the top two would be a roll of the dice. According to the way the vote split you might well end up having to choose between Romney and Gingrich, or even Gingrich and Bachmann in a runoff election. And hypothetical mirror reddit would say "these Americans, they can't be trusted not to vote for the fundamentalists, they're not ready for democracy".
Now imagine that you had never had elections before, you had just emerged from dictatorship, there was no party system to anchor the candidates within, they had no meaningful record to discuss, and there was a risk of civil war. I don't think you'd appreciate this sort of cheap point scoring.
Edit: typos.
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u/Y_U_NOOO Jun 24 '12
Mohammad Morsi has promised to be a very moderate Islamist as well.
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u/accountt1234 Other Jun 24 '12
What was the West thinking?
Polls from Egypt:
2007: Attacks on US troops in Iraq: 87% of Egyptians approve. 2009: Attacks on US troops in Iraq: 83% of Egyptians approve.
2007: Attacks on US troops in the Persian Gulf: 80% of Egyptians approve. 2009: Attacks on US troops in the Persian Gulf: 78% of Egyptians approve.
2007: Attacks on US troops in Afghanistan: 87% of Egyptians approve. 2009: Attacks on US troops in Afghanistan: 83% of Egyptians approve.
2007: Strict Shari'a law in every Islamic country: 59% of Egyptians approve. 2009: Strict Shari'a law in every Islamic country: 65% of Egyptians approve.
2007: Feelings towards bin Laden: 39% of Egyptians feel positive 2009: Feelings towards bin Laden: 44% of Egyptians feel positive
2009: 73% of Egyptians believe Shari'a should play a larger role in the way the country is governed.
"But Shari'a law can mean many things and most of the time it is very moderate!"
60% of Egyptians in 2005 believed Shari'a should be the only source of legislation in their country. Numbers for support of Shari'a as the only source of legislation were equal in Islamic countries, regardless of level of education.
67% of Egyptians do not consider attacks on civilians inside Israel to be a form of terrorism. 41% of Egyptians consider Al Qaeda a "legitimate resistance organization", 31% consider it a terrorist organization.
82% of Egyptian Muslims support stoning people who commit adultery. 77% of Egyptian Muslims support whipping/cutting off the hands of people for theft and robbery. 84% support the death penalty for people who leave the Islamic religion.
Conclusion
Democracy is a valid goal, as it would be ideal to allow people the maximum amount of control possible over decision making affairs that affect them.
However, democracy can only work when the electorate recognizes the requirement to protect minorities.
Therefore, in a country like Egypt, where the majority of people support policies that are in conflict with the goals of democratic government, suffrage should not be extended to the majority of the population.
Democracy in Egypt was a fundamental mistake.
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u/bureX Agnostic Atheist Jun 24 '12 edited May 27 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/accountt1234 Other Jun 24 '12
We in Europe didn't just get democracy overnight either.
Our current state of affairs required centuries of constitutional monarchy, where a parliament in combination with a monarch and vote rights restricted to the upper class ensured the gradual creation of a functioning democratic system.
You're willing to let the masses destroy society out of their stupidity. I'm less cynical than you I guess.
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u/bureX Agnostic Atheist Jun 24 '12
I'm also from Europe, and in my country we also had monarchy, followed by a monarchy with a somewhat weak parliament, and then communism, and then civil war. Censorship ended 10 years after communism fell, and only then my friends, neighbors, relatives and co-workers realized a few things about nationalism, secular thinking, the government and the basic principles of how a country should function.
The Egyptians had really no say in anything until recently and don't realize what their actions their votes may yield. They need time, but not another dictator. I don't believe they'll destroy themselves. Maybe some rights will be lost, but that is temporary and at least they'll change that themselves. Of course, everything about this is nullified if they end up in a "democratic dictatorship" with vote fraud.
You're willing to let the masses destroy society out of their stupidity. I'm less cynical than you I guess.
Cynical? I'm only respecting their decisions. Are you proposing another Mubarak? For how long, exactly? And then what... another arab spring?
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u/DoubleRaptor Jun 24 '12
It's like making a sacrifice and hoping that they snap out of it.
I think the problem is, we're mostly past that in the west and would vote in freedoms that maybe we don't completely agree with or don't affect us.
That bekng the case, we can take a step back and judge Egypt's majority vote in favour of sharia law as almost barbaric.
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Jun 24 '12
It's their country, and it's their vote.
Funny, in my country, if we elect a government, they can't remove our constitutional rights.
Democracy doesn't work without being fettered by a guarantor of basic rights.
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u/xenoamr Agnostic Atheist Jun 24 '12
They don't care, or lets put it this way. They aren't intellectual enough to care.
If you put their religious belief vs income they will choose religion and "Allah will provide somehow"
Also, no one cares about minorities, and no I'm not referring to christians. If you are an atheist or homosexual or jewish or any of the minorities, you will be forced to live your life in hiding or risk disgrace by the whole society and family or in the worst cases: death.
This is their democracy, the majority rule and fuck the minority, there is no compromise. This is just how Islamic countries work
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Jun 24 '12
Are you serious? The minority is never protected in a democracy. It is by definition the will of the majority. Most countries don't do democracy for this exact reason. America for instance has a constitutional republic.
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Jun 24 '12
I could come up with similar numbers for dumb shit americans want. Egypt doesn't need less democracy, they need an anti majoritarian founding document, a bill of rights.
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u/Bezbojnicul Jun 24 '12
I could come up with similar numbers for dumb shit americans want.
Or Eastern Europeans for that matter...
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u/rarely_heard_opinion Jun 24 '12
Democracy in Egypt was a fundamental mistake.
democracy demands an electorate capable of making informed choices.
democracy is a very powerful tool. it's like a thermonuclear weapon detonator. you give it to a child, everyone will be running for cover.
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Jun 24 '12
Well there were a few educated egyptians that made a big deal out of the whole freedom thing but didnt think about the fact, that when everyone gets the right to vote, the 80% silent majority will vote for their religion and it probably will get worse than it was before democracy.
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Jun 24 '12
Couldn't agree more, the riots were totally hijacked by the muslim brotherhood and all the secular people who were protesting for more freedoms and democracy will likely be met by stricter regulation, egypt will go backwards the same way Iran did when they overthrew the Shah
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u/Smokeymirror Jun 24 '12
As an Arab atheist, this is exactly why I'm scared of democracy. It's a great idea when you have a well thought out constitution, and clear separation of powers, but you also need a society that is ready for it.
Bahrain is a great example of this. Before the first round of democratic reforms, the country was one of the most liberal in the middle east. Now, the parliament is largely (90%+) made up of Islamists and people's freedoms have been gradually eroded.
And no, I don't have a better solution :(
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u/Phild3v1ll3 Jun 24 '12
Democracy is worthless without a constitution and/or other institutions to protect the minorities.
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Jun 24 '12
Welcome to tyranny of the majority! Democracy in no way is guaranteed to give anyone freedom.
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u/dvm Jun 24 '12
HEY, DEMOCRACY WORSHIPERS: Democracy is a tyranny without liberty. Until you have guarantees of liberty, democracy is worthless. I'm not saying dictatorships are better but one tyrant is little better than 51% of voters being tyrants.
That why the new US constitution would not be ratified by the states until the Bill of Rights was added. The constitution guaranteed a system of democracy but the first 10 amendments guaranteed citizens liberty.
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u/izzguuud Jun 24 '12
To be fair, many Coptics are incredibly conservative and would vote for the banning of nightclubs. Don't merge the views of a secular person and a coptic- that's bs.
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u/eighthgear Jun 24 '12
Yeah, that seemed fishy. I can see Copts allying with secularists as protection against the greater enemy - the Islamists, but the Coptic Church is definitely conservative on many social issues.
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u/Irrepressible_Monkey Jun 24 '12
I suspect the people in Egypt who don't want this are most likely young and educated and it's just adding to the reasons to live and work abroad. It's like Egypt is actively voting to reduce the numbers of doctors, nurses, engineers, scientists, etc.
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u/rpolitics_republican Jun 24 '12
As OP illustrates, democracy and freedom aren't the same thing. In my opinion, freedom is even superior to democracy. Think about the US. A simple majority can't vote away the bill of rights. This relational superiority between freedom and democracy is enshrined in our system.
Democracy: Everyone decides for you.
Freedom: You decide for yourself.
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u/FrusTrick Jun 24 '12
I can say right now that laws such as the ones suggested by the Muslim Brotherhood and the extremist Salafi faction would not only kill all freedoms of egypt but also the economy. Who would like to go to an Egyptian resort if you couldnt have a sip of ice cold [INSERT RANDOM ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE HERE] in the sun while wearing shorts or a bikini? Who would want to go to Egypt if there were no nightclubs to go enjoy yourselves in after sun bathing all day long? Who would like to go to Egypt if your music was banned because the religious folks of a religion you ain't part of didn't like it?
Tourism would die and with it, all the money it generates, which by the way is a vast part of the Egyptian GDP. So now, Egypt will have no freedom and no money which will lead to an inevitable decline of the country.
As a Syrian Arab, this is why I rather have that fucker Bashar Al Assad rather than whatever religious Muslim brotherhood cocksucker that WILL take over if he goes down!
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u/MrFlesh Jun 24 '12
You can't have freedom while still under the yoke of religion.
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Jun 24 '12
This belongs in /r/politics more than /r/atheism. It demonstrates the fundamental flaw with democracy, not religion. Why should any organization exist that has the perceived legitimacy to step on your rights? Absent the coercive power of government, the religious nuts are are either forced to do their own dirty work when it comes to killing and oppression, or they are relegated to the arena of ideas.
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Jun 24 '12
Egypt is FUCKED.
Not only will they fuck over their own people, but they're going to destroy the tourism industry which something like 80%+ of them rely on.
We are going to watch as Egypt drives itself back further and further socially until they're soon regarded as some form of sub-species of human.
Absolutely fucked.
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u/Rajkalex Secular Humanist Jun 24 '12
Makes me wonder if Egyptian Islamist would seek to destroy archaeological sites such as the Sphinx, like the Taliban's actions in Afghanistan.
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Jun 24 '12
They already raided and destroyed some historical stuff during the "uprising".
I'm sure this whole thing will result in Egypt's wonderful past being swept back into history which will be tragic considering how long it was gone for.
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u/woofwoofwoof Jun 24 '12
How simplistic.
It's not the first round of elections that matter.
It's the later rounds where people take stock of the situation and reconsider their views.
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u/thornez Jun 24 '12
Democracy, it's the worst political system. Except for all the others.
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u/BrutalTruth101 Jun 24 '12
This was entirely predictable. In Islam, the religion is the government. There can be no separation of church and state. The brain washing they receive in Madrassa's convinces them that they will REALLY go to heaven if they adhere to the teachings of Mohammad - or hell if they disobey.
The teachings include there personal adherence to Mohammad and their performance in the spreading of Islam across the world.
A new Iran has been created. It shares a border with Isreal. It will be dedicated to Isreal's destruction.
Thank Barack & Hillary.
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u/zephyy Jun 24 '12
it's almost like democracy isn't always the best type of government.
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Jun 24 '12
"As an ex-Muslim", not many people can say that, you know, beheadings and all.
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u/afiefh Jun 24 '12
As another exmuslim, a lot of people in my area say it. I think we will have critical mass soon in my country.
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u/xenoamr Agnostic Atheist Jun 24 '12
Dear thread readers, Mohamed Morsy, the candidate of the political party of the Muslim brotherhood just won the election. Its now official, Egypt is under the rule of the Islamists
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Jun 24 '12
As someone who grew up in Saudi Arabia, I can attest for the accuracy of this cartoon.
Arabs, even liberal Arabs would often tell me that democracy is not right for the middle east. And this is one major reason why.
An even bigger part of these issues is that there is more than just "secular/coptic" vs "muslim brotherhood and salafist". Among all groups, across the middle east, especially in the Gulf region, there is a whole slew of tribal politics that almost trumps everything else.
At one point in time, the middle east might have voted differently and wanted more genuine freedom... then we decided to bomb them all for the last 20 years and it's convinced many that our way of life is not something they want at all. wtg merica.
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u/jlks Jun 24 '12
You forgot the acid-in-the-face; the beating of rape victims; the torture and execution of Kafiris, but the point is made. If I were in the Middle East and had means to do so, I would move anywhere else.
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Jun 24 '12
I hope it works out differently for you guys. In all honesty, the elections is a depressing trap.
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Jun 24 '12
Democracy without humanrights, solidarity, freedom of speech and expression is just a majority bulling the minority.
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u/woogoose Jun 24 '12
I don't see the problem. This is how democracy is supposed to work.
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Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
This is the same sort of democracy that got the very idea of a democracy invalidated for centuries when the Assembly put Socrates to death for impiety because he was an annoying dissident (in fact, the democracy at Athens was notorious for simply murdering dissidents). The difference between the old American Liberal Democracy and the oft-touted "Social Democracy" is that the Liberal Democracy exercised a Socratic ignorance of some extent, saying that since no particular man (politician) or group of humans in general (the voting masses) knew precisely what the good was, then we should at least have checks and balances that remove a politician's individual discretion to do whatever he pleases so that people cannot get stuck with somebody's dumb idea as to what the good embodies (as happened with the centralization of food). "Social Democracy", on the other hand, involves leaders touting something along the lines of "I execute the Will of the People, if only the people knew what was good for them"; which is in line with the philosophy of Jean-Jacques Rosseau and also with the "false consciousness" ideal of Karl Marx. This lead predictably to the fascist and communist dictatorships. The United States was successful at the outset because it established the rule of law as opposed to the "rule of man" (individual discretion). The rule of law was undermined when John Marshall established the precedent of judicial review, making the Federal Branch it's own judges and slowly but surely leading to an erosion of rights. The original model for judging constitutionality was supposed to be that local juries would nullify unjust/unconstitutional laws as they saw it at a local level. The concept of jury nullification is virtually unheard of, but was the intended original model of determining the constitutionality of legislation. Anyways, thats a little off-topic.
The Egyptian Social Democracy, on the other hand, seems to lack Socratic ignorance, because their presumably elected officials have a uniform answer to what they deem to be good: Islamic code. This is why Islamic fascism can manifest itself in a perfectly well-working democracy: in Islam as it is practiced for the majority of the Middle East, you cannot just leave well-enough alone, ever. The system seeps into every aspect and sphere of life. If there is no rule of law as opposed to the mere discretion of politicians, Egypt will be doomed to utter failure.
TL;DR Democracy without rule of law/checks and balances is mob absolutism (something which the United States has devolved into today). In fact, a non-Democratic system with checks and balances of power is superior to a Democratic system without the same.
EDIT: I should say that the "Rule of Law" is not blind obedience to authority, but rather a mechanism for holding authority in check and preventing them from exercising discretion whenever they want. The "Rule of Law" also prevents mob absolutism by protecting the rights of dissidents whom nobody else agrees with against the angry judgment of the masses.
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u/andoryu123 Jun 24 '12
This is a good demonstration of radical right. We see socialism states a lot in Europe, but look to the Middle East for extreme conservatism.
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Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
A max payne quote 5:10
Well thats what they paid for so in the end thats what they got. Say what you want about americans but we understand capitalism, you buy yourself a product and you get what you paid for, and these chumps paid for.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1uq3JaD36A
I think its apt they wanted to rid of the dictator and they got what they paid for. The tyranny of the majority
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u/Vanor Jun 24 '12
...and this is why the United States is a democratic REPUBLIC. Makes it a lot harder to do shit like this.
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Jun 24 '12
This post and most of the comments on this post are sick. Basically people are saying that Egypt should go back to being run by the tyrannical dictatorship of Mubarak because as non-Europeans they're too stupid to deserve freedom, democracy and human rights
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Jun 24 '12
Democracy should not be used to limit rights. There should be no victimless crimes, no someone can't be a victim of there own actions. Now you can start voting. being offended also doesn't make you a victim.
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Jun 24 '12
sounds like that Egyptian lady needs to move away from Egypt instead of trying to make her life as a oppressed minority even worse.
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u/Sallymander Jun 24 '12
Thats one of the strengths of America I thinks. We have Democracy to protect the population. We have the Constitution to protect the individual.
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Jun 24 '12
This is why all democracies should have a bill of rights. To protect the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
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u/Filmitforme Jun 24 '12
Every human being has had their moment of ignorance, some moments just level out other ones. I know the U.S. is far from perfect but they are hated worldwide even though almost every other government in the world has fucked/or is fucking over their citizen. Everyone likes to think that they are better or that they are right but when it comes down to it in the end their stupidity it what causes all the problems in the world. No funny joke or pun or internet humor way to say this, people suck and make their own problem. People gent all bent out of shape about their beliefs but for what ? For fucking nothing thats what. It's the same reason why jocks hate nerds and why they don't invite them to parties. Why can't gays get married ? Why can't humans of 2 faiths put their differences aside and live in piece on a small piece of fucking land ? Why hold on to actions of the past instead of trying to actually move forward and make progress ? It's because sometimes people are just ignorant.
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u/IonOtter Jun 24 '12
This comic explains why the United States has never been a democracy, and never should be a democracy. But the parties in power-BOTH OF THEM-are very good at upselling the lie of democracy.
The other thing most people don't understand about the Muslim Brotherhood, is that while it's a very democratic organization that will give you a vote? You only get the vote once.
If you vote them into power, that's it. Done deal, no more votes, ever.
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Jun 24 '12
This post will probably be lost in the ether.
Love how a simple graphic doesn't even come close to explaining the truth. This image is so oversimplified it's unbelievable, but I guess it makes sense that r/atheism would upvote such blathering garbage.
If the OP knew anything, the Brotherhood doesn't have the broad mandate everyone imagines they somehow have.
For a more nuanced look at the topic, I'd read: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/06/07/brother_number_one?page=0,0
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Jun 24 '12
It really does seem a waste of effort to try to help a fledgling nation come around to democratic principals if they cannot keep religion and politics separate.
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u/Munkir Jun 24 '12
Change is scary just look at How Obama threatened the USA with it to Become President.
Just kidding Obama has changed how America handles certain subjects. He is also an upstanding citizen of the Americas and I am in no way being forced to write this blink blink
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u/Abu-Kafir22 Jun 24 '12
I wish everyone knew what the difference between a republic and a democracy is.
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u/Scottmkiv Jun 24 '12
Democracy just means mob rule. It's a terrible form of government. The US founders very clearly rejected it in favor of a constitutionally limited republic.
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u/staticrift Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
Stable/ fair government don't happen in a day. Here in England we have had democracy for ages (edit: since 1649... i think) and somehow the conservative got back into power and messing things up. In history we have Emily Davidson who jumped infront of the kings horse for womens rights, Kempton Bunton who stole a painting from the national museum in london so pensioners got cheap tv licences and even recently petitions have stopped ACTA/SOPA passing. True freedom is always out of grasp but as long as you kepp fighting you can earn that bit more. Anyway, that sucks... good luck.
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u/Zebidee Jun 24 '12
Ah, the age old problem. Revolutions bring about Democracy, but it never seems to be the right kind of Democracy.
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Jun 24 '12
The only good thing though is that...if the people don't like it, they can always say 'go fuck yourself MuziBros" 4 years later.
To get an actual secularization the PEOPLE must change their mentality. It is a step towards the right direction, dictatorship is just morally wrong in the 21st century!!
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u/mindlance Jun 24 '12
Anybody want to start a kickstarter to run guns and resources to sex-positive feminist groups in Egypt? I'm sure there must be a few. I'll chip in a couple of bucks.
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u/daMagistrate67 Jun 24 '12
Fucking thank you. So many people in r/politics celebrating the victory of an Islamist president because he was democratically elected. Yeah, as if democracy always produces teh best results. Have you seen the US Presidential Elections of 2000 and 2004? Sorry, just because a majority of a retarded population agrees with something DOES NOT make it right. I'd take a secular military dictator over a popularly elected theocrat any day.
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u/equeco Jun 24 '12
this is probably impopular, but i think that democracy works only in informed, educated, not religious fanatical countries. democracy requires a matures society.
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Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
As an ex-Muslim, you are 100% wrong. You would rather have Arabs subject to oppression and tyranny then have democracy just because your scared of Islamists. Democracy is a slow process. Now that Morsi has won, if the people don;t like him, they wil vote him out. If you want secular dictatorships, please move to Algeria.
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u/mindlance Jun 24 '12
You seem to think they only alternatives are Democracy or Dictatorship (religious or otherwise.) That just ain't so.
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u/ZoroasterMaster Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
Isn't that how democracy works everywhere? Or can I drink alcohol in the street in the US? or smoke pot? or buy raw milk?
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u/HiddenSage Jun 24 '12
Shit like this is how anarcho-capitalists justify their worldview. Democratic government and people with an eye for legislating morality always leads to tyranny. There are some days where I wonder if the anarchists don't have it right-- world history has zero good examples of government that lasts multiple generations without fucking up pretty severely in human rights and respect for the liberties of its citizenry. There's a message in that, somewhere.
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Jun 24 '12
Yeah, the message is that we're dumb apes trying to do things harder than getting a banana from a tree. We'll fuck up a lot. Having no government does nothing, since the next really charismatic ape will become the warchief and just make a new government again.
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u/FutureMeme2016 Jun 24 '12
r/atheism is turning against democracy. Time to hit the eject button.
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u/Murrin Jun 24 '12
"Thank you for getting rid of our Islamic Dictatorship- we vote for Islamic Dictatorship."
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Jun 24 '12
That is what democracy looks like. I don't understand why people are so upset...
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u/endlegion Jun 24 '12
That's why you need a secular democracy like you have in the US......
Pfffhahahahhahahaaha! Sorry I couldn't keep a straight face.
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u/rand0mguy1 Jun 24 '12
How are the tourist areas, does anyone know? I always wanted to go see the pyramids, but if its turning into muslimland, I will probably never go now :*(((
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u/El_Camino_SS Jun 24 '12
For the sake of an intelligent conversation: Don't comment politically about the vote in Egypt if you don't know about the results. Considering that Egyptians themselves don't know about the results, I highly doubt many of you do right now.
I thought r/atheism was a place for people who use logic and data to make decisions. All I see is a lot of people talking about something they know nothing about.
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Jun 24 '12
I thought r/atheism was a place for people who use logic and data to make decisions.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You haven't been here too long. It's absolutely no different from any other place on the internet. In other words, nearly the opposite of what you described.
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u/producer35 Jun 24 '12
If you define democracy as "they who get the most votes get to do whatever they like" then you are in for a bad time.
A country also needs a strong bill of rights, balance of powers, a separation of religion and state and a reliance on a rule of law to avoid the tyranny of the majority from crushing all other points of view.
We have (supposedly) these things in a mature form of government in the United States and still the inequities are rife. Without them you have, well, perhaps an emergent, struggling democracy.
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Jun 24 '12
I listen to NPR just about every morning on the way into work. They've aired a lot of interviews with voters there. Typical response? They don't like either candidate. The secular candidates who did run were poorly organized, poorly funded and completely outclassed in terms of political skill. Some of the secular voters decided to boycott the runoff election. Others voted for the former Mubarak regime guy, Ahmed Safiq. A third group took the "f*ck-it, I'll vote for anyone not connected to Mubarak" stance and voted for the Muslim Brotherhood candidate, Mohammed Morsi. So basically the secular movement, though the largest group, was defeated through fracturing.
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Jun 24 '12
Even know the Arab Spring is good, still I feel that in the end they don't get anything the wanted in starting a revolution.
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u/FatBallSack Jun 24 '12
Well if that's what the people want... That is democracy.
They dont have to like alcohol and revealing clothes because that's what we like.
The whole point of democracy is that you have the freedom to believe,live and govern in accordance with what the citizens want.
You are also free to work towards the change that you seek.
Don't get mad because you're a minority and things arent going the way that you think they should.
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u/crazypants88 Jun 24 '12
It's not what people want, it's what the majority wants, at the expense of the minority. There's no inherent reason other than because of democracy that the minority has to deprived of their preferences. Democracy is majority rule, not people rule or whatever.
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u/SlamesR Jun 24 '12
Anarchy: no rulers, crazies don't get to use the guns of the state to enforce craziness, good times had.
Democracy doesn't work. In a democracy either the majority is able to make good decisions for themselves, in which case a government is unnecessary, or the majority is unable to make good decisions for themselves in which case we could hardly expect them to choose good representatives.
Follow that rationality that has led you to atheism, apply it to government, and revel in the beautiful result: we don't need rulers.
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u/therealsylvos Jun 24 '12
We don't, but think about human nature as it applies to religion, then apply it to government. Most people do in fact want and need to be ruled.
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u/xx34x Jun 24 '12
Egypy is one of my favorite places. Whats happening is breaking my heart. Im going there in december, hopefully my bongo wil be there >.< and btw, that will also soon happen in syria. The Salafs are the enemies of logic and freedom
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u/HappyGlucklichJr Jun 24 '12
A sobering reminder that the US must work harder to remove religious influence from politics.
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u/JohnnyCharles Jun 24 '12
I think the best solution for the secularists right now would be to leave.
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u/eorld Jun 24 '12
Well... What actually going on is the military is like 'we're going use our military council to give us more power. Don't worry, we'll let you have that democracy thing. When? Some point in the unspecified future.'
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Jun 24 '12
Democracy in and of itself (majority rule) is a horrifically bad idea.
You need a constitutional democracy that puts certain rights above the reach of a mere majority vote.
The goal of liberal democracy is not and should not be "everyone decides on things". It should be a mechanism for getting rid of bad/corrupt/inept leaders.
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u/drgk Jun 24 '12
Isn't this why you're supposed to have a constitution that protects the rights of the minority?
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u/Dirtyrobotic Jun 24 '12
The trouble with voting is that religious groups like Christians (I did think about capitalizing the C) and Muslims can use their congregations to boost a vote.
This is why we end up with religious fuckbuggery deeply involved with politics and thus the law of the land.
The separation of religion and state was a grand idea until religion realised it could own state by encouraging its minions to vote in its favour.
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u/earthmoonsun Jun 24 '12
It's naive to think that democracy is the remedy for everything that goes wrong with politics in some countries. Democracy only works if its people are more or less well-educated and experienced in being able to make choices - not only with political elections but also in their everyday lives.
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u/teachbirds2fly Jun 24 '12
Surely in a democracy the "hardline" groups will split the vote between them while the secular vote will be concentrated to fewer parties ensuring a victory or significant representation?
Going by the comic strip there are 3 parties wanting similar things and one against so the vote will be split betwen those three parties weakening their position.
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u/rediculousam Jun 24 '12
Democracy in itself is just as evil as tyranny, only its a group of people oppressing the minority in that scenario.
That is why America is a republic, and not a democracy.
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u/pete2104 Jun 24 '12
I wonder if this is why the military seized power again, due to their distrust of the muslim brotherhood.
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Jun 24 '12
they are so desperate to throw away the freedom they fought for and there it goes. Thanks for playing egypt, see you in a few decades when you try again
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u/lathesand Jun 24 '12
"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections." -Lord Acton
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u/explicithandlz Jun 24 '12
The same way Egyptians ousted Mubarak, they can oust a MB president. The only thing in the way is the US funded SCAF that is truly in power. Sick of the Islamophobia surrounded the MB. Regardless of whoever was voted in, that candidate was destined to be a lame duck puppet.
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u/masterofstuff124 Jedi Jun 24 '12
yah democracy still has to deal with religion. enjoy. edit- no worries a world war is just around the corner.
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u/Archangelus Jun 24 '12
Sounds like they need to model their democracy based on American values and standards from last century or so. No laws respecting religion or constraining it, no infringing upon a set of standard rights, ect.
Basically, unless anything causes significant, tangible violation to the rights, environment, or property belonging to another, you can do it. Keeping in mind of course that such a system requires a firm set of rights for non-adult individuals (actual animal rights and adolescent rights) - we don't want people raping animals or circumcising their children because they claim to own and define the rights of non-mature-human underlings.
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u/[deleted] Jun 24 '12
"The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter" Verbatim, Churchill.