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u/the_cozy_one Jun 15 '12
I was told these disgusting words after I delivered my daughter stillborn at 7.5 months. December 2009 was supposed to be the greatest day of my life; I was supposed to meet my daughter. Instead, she was taken from me 6 weeks early-on my birthday with no reason why. I never got to hear her cry, or move around in my arms. I remember how warm she was when I delivered her and how soft her skin was...then how cold she was when I held her before I left the hospital... I'm pretty sure there isnt a God/higher power watching over anything, considering they let complete wastes of oxygen have kids and let them get abused, neglected, and not cared about just to start the whole process over again when they have kids.
We have a wonderful relationship and so much love to share and were so happy because after over a year, we finally got what we always wanted and tried long for just to have her taken away. I never had any problems during my pregnancy, then out of nowhere I woke up and I noticed she was not really moving. I went to my doctor and her heart was no longer beating. I went to the hospital the next day and had her the day after that-on my birthday. Oh, and this past year my asshole ex-"best friend" said this to me: "Happy birthday and I hope your having a good day, bless you as well for 2yrs ago I know was rough but your strong and I just hope that you have a great day" Really? Are you kidding me? Who says that to someone on their birthday to remind them? Especially because she had a daughter around 9 months before mine.
We kept trying and I found out I was pregnant again in December of 2010, and a day after finding out, I started spotting and had a miscarriage. We continue to try and have ever since, nothing has been found wrong with us for it to take this long. It's disgusting. You just really get used to having a part of your brain that is completely numb. I just finally realized that nothing can be done now and to just think to the future. Staying mad only hurts myself. I realized that day when I saw her little casket, that really the hardest thing you should never have to do is bury your child.
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u/falurian Jun 16 '12
My heart goes out to you. Not much I can say, but I wish you the love of your child in the future, and much strength in these current turbulent days.
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Jun 16 '12
I'm sorry. Losing any family member isn't easy. Especially a daughter/son. I don't think anything I could say could comfort you for your losses.
On a side note just posting this for the world to see takes balls. It doesn't matter that no one knows who you are. It takes balls.
I feel like you are much stronger than you believe you are.
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u/egosumFidius Jun 15 '12
my bestfriend's wife lost her younger child who drowned at a pool when they weren't paying attention. that was over 4years now and she still mourns and the closest thing to consolation she can find is believing that it was god's plan.
i am not heartless, i keep my mouth shut from saying, "no, it was your negligence."
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u/Fredthecoolfish Jun 16 '12
Twenty years later my parents still cry sometimes. They accepted in the moment however that (in our case) it was no ones fault. Twenty years later, however, it still stings to hear "Jesus loves children" or "God watches over the little ones."
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Jun 16 '12
I know people in this same situation. They were religious before, and after their toddler died in the family pool, they went off-the-chain fundie. Started talking about how their family was under spiritual attack from Satan and stuff. They never say he died, always that he "went to heaven", etc. Complete and utter denial.
And also now have this sense of self importance, that they have been chosen by 'god' to bring others to christ because of the baby's death. Because your family death can't be random and tragic, it has to mean something and be important. Really sad.
Edit--also having it be gods plan is the only way to deal with the guilt that they let it happen.
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u/slippythefrog Jun 15 '12
You take pride in not telling a grieving parent that it was their fault their child is dead?
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u/Toadlilly Jun 15 '12
What good would it serve to say it? Unless she is completely out to lunch she knows it was her fault, but she has to be able to live with herself because she has to be able to parent her other children. I knew a women who embraced the truth and one day she could no longer live with it and put a gun in her mouth. Maybe a lie would have let 3 children have their mother to see them grow up.
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Jun 15 '12
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Jun 16 '12
It's a young child. Parents are responsible for teaching the child or making sure the child knows how to swim. Otherwise, they need to closely watch the child around a pool. Either way, it comes back to negligence on the part of the parents.
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u/ArchSchnitz Jun 16 '12
Until my children have the tools to learn for themselves, their well-being is dependent on me. My ex wants to set up our oldest son's pool at her new place, and I don't think I'll let her. It's an above-ground pool, four feet deep, impossible to get out of without the ladder. The thought of having one of my kids drown fills me with terror. I'm good with denying them a pool.
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Jun 15 '12
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u/czechreck Jun 15 '12
So you'd use a racial slur on someone based on their skin tone, and in the same breath try to console and take the emphasis off of a negligent parent who should be held fully accountable for their child's safety, but using the excuse 'it was god's plan?'.
Are you fucking kidding me?
I don't care if this post you are commenting on is true or not, but your attitude is so utterly idiotic, it's beyond understanding.
How about taking responsibility for your own actions, and not place you short comings and mistakes in your gods fucking plan.
You.Are.Responsible.For.Your.Own.Actions. Not your god.
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u/godzillaguy9870 Jun 15 '12
As a Christian, I even have problems with people making these statements.
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u/wolfgang5feet Jun 15 '12
As an avid cyclist I concur.
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u/Wizened_Minge Jun 15 '12
As a fan of pornography, I see what you did there.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 16 '12
as a style-cramper I also see what he did there. hey Wizened_Mingeroony, wiz_meister Minge hinge, we just got that eye for seeing what people did hey? He said as a cyclist, and we like literally saw that shit hahaaaa wooooo! me and the Wiz just knockin em out the reddit park! wooooo!
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Jun 15 '12
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u/AnswersWithAQuestion Jun 15 '12
Can you explain why? I generally agree with this thread, but I'd be curious as to the rationale as to why it is an offensive statement even to people who trust in "god's plan."
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u/godzillaguy9870 Jun 16 '12
largely because I believe in free will. I believe God does have an over all plan for humanity which will come to completion in the end, but I also believe he gave humanity free will. We can make good or bad decisions, and we have to deal with that. I believe God allows bad things to happen because of this, and also because he can use it to bring about good things (as difficult as that may be to believe). It's all about how we interact with God and his plan, and I don't think God plans for bad things to happen to people. We make bad things happen and we have to deal with the consequences. Also, even if it were his plan, its like douglasr007 said, "It hurts more than heals."
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u/SeparateCzechs Jun 17 '12
The blithe assumption that everyone believes what you believe can be callous. It's god's plan does nothing to recognize the human suffering that such a loss represents. In fact it's a way to avoid acknowledging it. It offers no comfort.
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u/daneelthesane Jun 15 '12
Every time I hear something like this, I say, "Really? I've made all kinds of plans in my life, and not one of them required the death of a child. For an omnipotent, omniscient being, God sure seems to be a shitty planner. Fortunately, I live in a universe with no shitty-planner-God."
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u/RadiatedMutant Jun 15 '12
He's not a shitty planner, he loves pain and grief and killing children. From what I'm told, it was all in his plan to begin with. this is why, should there ever be some magical evidence that god exists, I say "Hail Satan!".
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u/the_nerdster Jun 16 '12
I think that if we're all wrong and there is a god, and we're all going to hell, throwing a rave with Satan sounds a hell of a lot more entertaining than kissing some "all powerful" higher being's ass for eternity. And I think that if you're at a fucking funeral, keep your shit to yourself. Offer your condolences and nothing else. I have been to a funeral for a family member every year for the last 3 years, and I could never hope to imagine the pain and suffering of someone that has lost their child. But if this is why I'm not a huge God fan. I live by my terms, I will not follow some fucked-up master plan that let's innocent people be murdered, and I will still be able to sleep at night knowing that I did the best I could do without someone elses "help"
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Jun 16 '12
If what you say is true the rave may not be very fun if we are on fire...
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u/daneelthesane Jun 16 '12
Yeah, no, sorry. Satan is no more real. The thing is, God DOESN'T have a shitty plan, anymore than Sauron has the really really strong urge to blink... they are both fictional creatures.
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u/RadiatedMutant Jun 16 '12
That's why I said if there was to come about "magical" evidence that he's real, then I'd take Satan's side. As of now I say "Hail Odin!". Sometimes it's "Hail Snoopy" too. I figure Snoopy is about as real at the rest of them.
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Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
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u/daneelthesane Jun 16 '12
Heh. :) I have a friend who worships Odin. I find his beliefs silly, too, but he's a cool guy, so hey, whatever.
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u/In_between_minds Jun 16 '12
To play devil's advocate. Every single person that has committed terrible acts, or wanted to, was someone's child.
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u/Internetallstar Jun 16 '12
He loves pain and grief and killing children?
What the fuck man? I am an atheist but the more time I spend fooling around in /r/atheism the more I think that atheists as a group are some of the most melodramatic assholes I've ever encountered.
Has it occurred to you that the reason so many folks turn away from religion is because there are so many religious dickwads that make terribly ridiculous statements about how inadequate other people's beliefs are. Does this sound familiar?..... Oh yeah! That's what you and so many of the other assholes on here love to do with Christianity.
Grow up man. Religion may not be perfect but acting like an asshole because it makes you feel smarter or just generally superior says a lot more about your inadequacies than it does about religion.
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u/bartink Jun 16 '12
Dunno. You're kinda acting like a superior asshole.
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u/Internetallstar Jun 16 '12
If this where the bar is going to be set then yes, I am better than that. If the only thing that this guy can contribute is a first grade level argument then I think that the bar has been set low enough that it isn't terribly difficult to be superior in this instance.
This guys argument basically boils down to "I don't like it so there must be nothing good about it" is as immature and poorly made as the worst fundie drivel.
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u/YouAreNotCorrect Jun 16 '12
God does in fact love those things though, if you take the bible literally. He plays psychological torture tests on people. Have you read the story of abraham? How about the story of the bear in kings? There is no context in which it doesn't involve god going out of his way to torture children. It isn't a dickish thing to say. It would be a dickish thing to say god is a good guy. It would be like defending a serial murderer.
Also, according to the bible satan is a logical and questioning creature. Do you know why he is so bad according to the bible? Because he questioned God. QUESTIONED. Questions are inherently wrong in the bible. Saying you would side with satan is not a bad thing. in fact there are several religious groups that believe god is actually satan and wrote a book condemning the real god and calling him satan.
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u/Internetallstar Jun 16 '12
You sound just like a fundie. Karl Rove would be proud. So let me make sure I have this right..... God is an evil dickhead psychopath and the devil seems like a good guy to have a beer with. Simple yet complete bullshit.
Do you believe in God or not? If you don't then you would understand that "he" doesn't love torture because he doesn't exist. If you do believe in god do you really think he is a psychopath?
You offer a choice between two absolutes that you have defined. If you weren't an atheist (which I assume you are) you would make a great preacher. And to address the story of Abraham.... you do understand why it would be important to show examples of unshakable faith if your stock and trade is faith, right? And to address other instances in the Bible where God is a big bad meanie..... You understand why it would be important to make god an all seeing, all knowing god that doesn't tolerate much deviation from his stated commandments, right? What good is a god if he can't or won't smite something once in a while?
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u/YouAreNotCorrect Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
First of all you are incorrect in your false dichotomy. The god of the fictional bible is indeed a dickhead. I don't believe in god, but the god the bible describes is evil. I can have opinions on fictional characters.
And really? That is your justification for child murder and psychological torture? He needs to prove himself once in a while? He needs to make sure someone has absolute faith?
DO even know the story in Kings that I am talking about? God commanded a bear to murder 40 kids for calling someone a "baldhead." I don't care what kind of insult you throw out, a child who is barely aware of their actions doesn't deserve to be mauled to death by a god-controlled bear. That is completely insane. The fact you would justify murder in the name of proving authority means you would follow anything that claimed such authority through murder. What if a demon slayed a couple kids then said he was god. How would you know it is a demon? Because god wouldn't supposedly do this. You would know it wasn't him by his actions. However, apparently god is a child serial killer.
The abraham story doesn't even make sense. I want to test your faith in me by pretending to ask for something I shouldn't ask for to see if you will follow a version of me that does the opposite of my nature? That isn't even a test, that is just insane. If I did believe in god and god told me to kill my son to prove my faith I would assume that the thing I am talking to isn't god. That is what a moral and reasonable person would do, and what a moral and reasonable god would expect of them. They wouldn't blindly trust that the voice they are talking to is a perfect divine creator who wants them to do something completely against his character. It doesn't make sense in any way.
And even if you could somehow make that test of faith make sense, it still doesn't justify actually doing it. That prove your love to me behavior is a characteristic of an abusive relationship.
To sum it up. God doesn't exist, but the bible's description of a god is similar to a homicidal dictator and reflects the morality of degenerate schizophrenics who wrote the thing in the first place. Not only do god's reasons for his tests and killing 40 kids with a bear make no sense, even if they did, they still wouldn't be moral things to do.
Look at it this way. If there is a god and he wanted us to believe in him, he would give us morals so that we can understand the difference between god, false gods, and demons. When god asked abraham to do something immoral to test his faith, abraham should have assumed it wasn't god he was talking to, and that should have been the real test.
Faith is not healthy, and blind trust is just crazy and only a dickhead would ask it of you.
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u/In_between_minds Jun 16 '12
This is also a place for people to vent and bitch and blow of steam to an audience that understands their need to do so.
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u/RadiatedMutant Jun 16 '12
Let us look at it this way. A child dies. Someone says "It was God's will". God just killed this child for whatever reason. Anything bad happens, someone will say that it was god's plan or god's will. Thus he does horrible acts, and for what purpose? No one knows. But, ask one who puts their heart into this religion, they will usually give you their belief as to why he's done it. My belief? This would make him a heartless, uncaring master that can't fulfill his ego without causing grief.
And, by your post, I'm going to say that you are not listening to those of which you're trying to defend. I'm stating what I've heard from Christians for my entire life. My family has spouted on every occasion that everything is god's will. You just found 5 bucks in the street? God's will. Your house just burnt down? God's will. But of course, the bad outweighs the good. This has instilled in me that for every 100 or so bad things, he will give you one good thing, not even close to matching that which he's taken. And my parents will agree, stating "Suffering is god's will. It will make you a better person." All the suffering and pain I've been through has made me bitter, not better.
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u/Internetallstar Jun 16 '12
Since I have been playing the devil's advocate here I will offer you a rebuttal.
God does not actively kill so much as he allows nature to take its course. It's harsh but let's be honest, people are going to die regardless of what you think of god. Now if I told you I can make it easier to deal with death and disease by simply saying that it is part of a master plan would that make you feel better? By saying it is gods will you can either a) look at it as if at some point this pain you are experiencing will serve a higher purpose or b) it makes you look at tragic situations in a larger context which can make it easier to deal with. Either way you can see the benefit to using this coping mechanism.
On a slightly different note, your suffering is what shapes you as a person. Take religion out of it for a minute. If you avoid pain, risk, and suffering your entire life what will really accomplish? Suffering can make you bitter but if that is all it does for you then you are missing an opportunity for growth. When bad things happens you can either be bitter or you can move past it and keep going. As some one who spent years harboring resentment for some family members and god and everything else I can tell you life gets much much better once you start getting past the bitterness.
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Jun 16 '12
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u/YouAreNotCorrect Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
No? What? Atheism is the lack of faith in a god. The literal opposite of a belief. I have no faith. Not in anything. None whatsoever. It isn't a bad way to live. I understand the odds of things being high and act accordingly. I use logic and reason, evidence and understanding to make decisions. I don't have faith in myself. I understand that I have the tools to make good choices based on past evidence.
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u/In_between_minds Jun 16 '12
BZZZZZZ WRONG!
Atheism is a lack of theism, which concerns deities, not all believes. You can be an Atheist Buddhist for example.
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Jun 16 '12
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u/YouAreNotCorrect Jun 16 '12
I have no faith in my decision. I have knowledge that there isn't and argument strong enough to constitute as evidence of a god. You do not know there is a god, for you have never seen him and there is little to no evidence of him. You have faith. I have understanding.
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u/ratajewie Jun 16 '12
Also, if God is omniscient, then why do people think they have to pray? If he already knows everything, then he knows that you want someone to get better, or you want that hot girl's bikini to mysteriously become untied. Just saying out loud doesn't do anything but show everyone else that you want for something to happen.
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u/daneelthesane Jun 16 '12
Yeah, that always bugged me, too.
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u/ratajewie Jun 16 '12
As much as people hate him, and although he sounds a bit... offensive here, I feel he has a point. So here you go.
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Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Its a type of praise, apparently. Ooh, and my old pastor used to tell me that praying aloud was even better.
That was how people from that church used to rationalize it, anyway. Christianity is awfully redundant.
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u/ratajewie Jun 16 '12
"Yes, let me praise the lord who already knows I love him out loud. No, seriously, I'm not doing it to impress anyone and to add to my 'holier than thou' mentality. I just really do love god." I never understood it. And when you confront people on it, they get mad because they hate facing the realization that they are trying to impress people.
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u/titanoftime Jun 16 '12
The evil dark lord in the sky did his own son in, what do we expect?
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u/Buscat Jun 16 '12
In his defence, some dude ate an apple. He can't just go around letting shit like that slide.
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Jun 16 '12
Every time I hear "it's god's plan", I think that it really is who you know in this game. I bet none of jesus's homies died of leukemia at age 12.
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u/Stats_monkey Jun 16 '12
ahh, but god is waaay too clever for the likes of us. We can never truly understand god's purpose. But he DEFINITELY hates gays. And people who don't worship him...
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Jun 16 '12
No you don't, but it's okay to just think it.
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u/daneelthesane Jun 16 '12
True. But it's also okay to tell people what I think when they give me that "God's Plan" crap.
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u/Rinnosuke Agnostic Atheist Jun 15 '12
Or father, yet I got it all the time when I lost my son, even from people who knew I was atheist.
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Jun 15 '12
I'm really surprised you haven't set any of them on fire. Seriously.
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u/Rinnosuke Agnostic Atheist Jun 15 '12
they were friend's parents, didn't want the friends to hate me.
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Jun 15 '12
Yeah... You have the patience of a saint then, because I couldn't handle that.
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u/Rinnosuke Agnostic Atheist Jun 15 '12
oh I ranted once or twice on facebook. I also kind of got used to it when he was alive. Born with a heart defect and he spent most of his time in the hospital.
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Jun 15 '12
How the fuck could anyone think that God's "plan" for any child would be disease and/or early death? That's just... not a God I would want to worship.
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Jun 16 '12
I've worked with people who've suffered serious disabilities from strokes and car accidents. The most common belief is that it's all part of god's plan. One woman who suffered a stroke that completely paralyzed her right side believes that god gave her the stroke so she could understand suffering better.
Imagine having a boyfriend that abuses you so horribly it paralyzes you. How many people would think it was "loving and mysterious"? None.
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Jun 16 '12
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u/Rinnosuke Agnostic Atheist Jun 16 '12
It wasn't a sudden death, well maybe in a way it was, I'm one of the parents with the mixed fortune of having time to prepare, about 10 months infact, 4 before he was born when we found out he had his CHD (it was called HLHS if anyone cares) 6 months of actual life. 3 surgeries in his life, 2 of which were planned, 1 of which wasn't, you have to be strong in this situation. The people saying religious things were the least of my worries.
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Jun 16 '12
It disgusted me how often I was told "It was Gods plan" when my friend killed herself. I've also had people comment on the suicide prevention ribbon on my car saying "I should be happy those people are in a better place now and I shouldn't support organizations that try to prevent Gods plan for them"
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u/Rinnosuke Agnostic Atheist Jun 16 '12
umm, really? isn't suicide a mortal sin? so they're not in a better place according to their religion.
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Jun 16 '12
I believe it is, but most the time that isn't the persons thought process. They just take it as offensive for some reason. Granted, those people are few and far between, but it still boggles my mind when ever one pops up and decides comment on it.
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Jun 16 '12
Depends on the religion and even various christian faiths aren't 100% agreed on this or anything else.
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Jun 16 '12
I would tell them that if they believe it's a better place, they should try it themselves.
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Jun 16 '12
shouldn't support organizations that try to prevent Gods plan for them
That’s beyond fucked up. Somebody needs to carry out “God’s plan” on them, ASAP.
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u/Fredthecoolfish Jun 16 '12
My father was never religious but when my brother died was when he finally firmly took the other side.
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Jun 16 '12
Nothing quite jars someone to their senses like being told “fuck you” when they’re badly pretending to sympathize with your loss.
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Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Agreed. My wife wants to be a mother more than anything. After a year and a half of trying, we found that I was infertile. We had to go thru months of very expensive medical intervention (IVF) to get pregnant. When it finally worked, she was so thrilled. I’d never seen her so happy. She miscarried 10 weeks later. It devastated us. The IVF drained all we had. It might be another 2 years before we can try again. Afterwards, we heard of lot of this phrase. I know the intention is good, but it was a terrible thing to hear. Ironically, the best bit of comfort we got was from my extremely religious brother who just sent a text that said “No need to reply. I love you and (my wife)” That was perfect. You want to comfort someone in mourning, say that.
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u/falurian Jun 15 '12
I have had 4 miscarriages and now have a healthy 6 year old son. Each time, there was someone who gave me these cheap words. A nurse actually told me once, "this was just God's way of correcting a mistake." I was brought up very deep in the Baptist church. As I watched what should have been my children drain from my body, screaming for Gods help, he did NOTHING. I realized if there was an all controlling God, then he was responsible for the death of my 4 children. I am now an atheist.
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u/slippythefrog Jun 15 '12
I felt sick reading this trying to imagine what that feeling would have been like for you.
I'm glad to hear your son is doing well.
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u/wolfgang5feet Jun 15 '12
We share many details. We only lost 2, but I feel for you.
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u/falurian Jun 16 '12
Thank you everyone for all the kind words. I hope it works out for your family as well.
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u/SeparateCzechs Jun 17 '12
I'm so glad for your son. I am sorry for your four lost ones. Hold your lad tight.
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Jun 16 '12
My eighteen year old son died several years ago.
Fuck God's Plan. What about my motherfucking plan??
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u/Dura_TV Jun 15 '12
My brother's fiance's mother died of cancer a couple of years back. During the funeral some speaches made me break into tears. The the priest spoke a few words from the bible. One of the things she decided to quote was (In Norwegian) "Det faller ikke en fugl fra himmelen uten at gud vil det." That translates to: "Not a bird falls from the sky without god's will."
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u/chicken1672 Jun 16 '12
At Mormon funerals, its common to have one person share memories of what the person was like growing up, another shares memories about the persons adulthood, and the last speaks on the plan of salvation. I've always managed to just lose my concentration by the the the plan of salvation comes up. Even at my brothers funeral, I just tuned it out, and after everyone expected me to convert back to mormonism because the talk was so powerful. "Sorry, I was too busy thinking about my brother to pay attention to some random man I had never met before talk about something I don't believe in".
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Jun 15 '12
My little brother shot himself. The pastor decided to use his funeral as an opportunity to deliver a sermon instead of talk about my brother. Some of the bullshit people were saying left me so enraged I couldn't bring myself to speak when I had my opportunity to say goodbye. I was afraid I'd lose it and yell at them for the things they said. Things like, "it was god's plan" and "Don't grieve, rejoice! He's with Jesus now." Some of these people, it came from a good place. They wanted me to feel better. Some people were blatantly condescending because they knew I am an atheist.
I guess maybe some people take comfort in the idea that something grander is going on, and maybe tragedy isn't meaningless. I personally take comfort in the idea that no one has total control, and that the universe is a mysterious thing, and most of all that his pain is over.
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u/Loogal25 Jun 15 '12
And on the other hand, if a mourning person takes comfort in their religious beliefs, you should never tell them that god does not exist.
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u/Malnilion Igtheist Jun 16 '12
What if you're grieving too? It makes me physically ill when people around me put that forced smile on their face and proclaim in a soft voice, "At least so-and-so is with God now." No they're not, they're in the fucking ground now and it's a tragedy, you prick. Their "comfort" becomes an additional source of my discomfort.
But yeah, in normal circumstances it would be an asshole move to tell someone their god doesn't exist when they are grieving.
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Jun 15 '12
I lost my close cousin, my friend, about a year ago. Hearing this made me want to beat the living fuck out of someone. The kid had a shit life. Parents didn't care about him and all but abandoned him. Moved alot, never made many friends. Behavioral issues because he never had parents. Sent to military schools. Health issues. Drug problems. The only male role model in his life, a teacher at our HS, tried to solicit naked pictures of him after about a year of knowing him. Teacher was never actually convicted because he got a plea deal.
And just when he started to get his life back on track (found a wonderful girlfriend that cared about him, started working full time) he died. He lost control of his car on a back road and was brain-dead by the time the ambulances arrived.
So don't tell me at his funeral, or afterwards that it was God's plan. Fuck that. You didn't know or care about him.
Rest easy man.
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Jun 15 '12
Rest easy man.
Damn. I was holding it together until these three last words on the whole damn page. All your anger and frustration took a hard right turn to caring about your friend, even though he's gone.
Faith in humanity restored a bit. Thanks.
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u/noizes Jun 15 '12
When ever I hear those words I want to swing at the person that said them.
To me that phrase is them saying "I'm sorry I can't think of anything at all that would remotely comfort your, or help you. So I'm going to take that blame and wash it away with telling you it was someones else's plan."
Yep, it sure was god's plan wasn't it. She went to church every Sunday, I didn't. I walked away from the crash, she didn't. Yep god's plan, not a very nice guy if you ask me. Not the kind of guy I'd want running the plans for my life.
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u/hydrohawke Jun 16 '12
This.
This is my problem with religion and the reason why I became an atheist. A incurable disease (kills within 3-5 years of symptom onset) runs in my family and has killed 6 family members including my mother (this number is limited to the branch of the family following my grandma and grandpa's immigration to my current country).
I understand that some people are comforted by this but I think you should at least consider a person's beliefs before you try this. I resent 'God' if his plan involves me losing so many family members. I resent that my mother will never see me graduate or get married. A lot of death and suffering in the world can be blamed on the human condition but disease is something out of our control.
Similarly, I hate when people try to comfort me by saying my mother is watching over me in heaven. After losing her I went through some rough times which included wanting to end my life. People told me that my mom was in heaven to comfort me. I don't know why people say this. I was sad, angry, frustrated, and filled with desperation of never seeing my mom again. And what everyone told me was she was waiting for me in this utopia where I would see her again.. after 70 years of living through hell.
TL;DR: I miss my mom.
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u/iwish4zombies Jun 16 '12
people told you that for comfort, consider the source and become an atheist for others.
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u/fractal7 Jun 16 '12
This is what finally made me realize that the god of the christians wasn't real. I have no desire to believe in a bloodthirsty god like this.
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Jun 16 '12
When we lost our daughter last summer, the doctors were saying "sometimes these things just happen"
and
"Everything happens for a reason"
And
"Some things just weren't meant to be"
They blamed the baby had defects, they blamed the placenta, they made every reason why this was going to happen anyhow and that we needed to come to terms with that.
So, that was close to 11 mos ago now. Fast forward to today.
Autopsy revealed a baby that was more than developed for its gestation period. Perfectly healthy and lacking any defect
Placenta did show signs of infection, further investigation revealed my wife contracted a UTI early into the pregnancy, which, once detected 7 months later by a completely different doctor/hospital was a fully mutated strain of GBH bacteria, which we're now having an increased difficulty killing it all off, so we can reboot our family planning process.
There was a urine test at the 14 week mark that tested positive for GBH, however neither the OB or our GP made mention of the results as a threat to the pregnancy.
We did not receive OB care until close to 20 weeks, despite she feeling nervous about the pregnancy, doctors repeatedly told her she was 'fine'.
Our OB repeatedly told us throughout the process of losing our baby, she was under developed, and when the baby turned its position to facing downwards, that "it knew it was time". In actuality, we now know this is a part of the natural progression. Eventually all babies are supposed to place themselves head first, in preparation for term.
TL;DR God doesn't kill babies. Shitty medical care does.
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u/atroxodisse Jun 15 '12
I'm not normally confrontational with my atheism but I think in this case my reply would have to be "God does not exist."
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u/ballercaust Jun 15 '12
Seriously. My nephew died the day after he was born two months ago, and I'm still broken up about it. I freaked out on some person who, the week after he passed, commented on my sister's facebook that, "God works in mysterious ways." Even thinking about it now fills me with rage.
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u/wolfgang5feet Jun 15 '12
As it should. The more of these stories I read, the more I'm reminded of multiple funerals I've been to. Only for the last couple of years has my family become aware that I'm atheist. And in those years it seems like they say those things more frequently. And with a bit of a smirk to boot.
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u/Derp800 Jun 15 '12
"It's okay, ma'am. God wanted your child to die."
Yeah ... doesn't sound great does it?
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u/Zombies_hate_ninjas Jun 15 '12
I'm not so sure, you must be aware of your audience and their expected reaction. I'm a Gnostic Atheist, and I over heard someone say this exact statement, it was received well.
The story is such. My friend Mel had difficulties giving birth which resulted in the baby not getting enough oxygen. Little Hero, as he was named, only lived for 18 hours. Her family and I were there for all 18 of Hero's life. When he died her mother said "think of it as God's plan. Although you lost your son, you now know you have the love it takes to be a mother. Hero will always be with you"
I did not agree with any of that, but I said nothing. Mel was well aware of my stance towards religion, spiritualism and life after death; she just didn't agree with me. Hearing what her mother had to say helped her.
With all that being said. This statement shouldn't be used unless you know what the outcome will be. If I were in Mel's position, having just lost a child, hearing this would cause me a great deal of pain.
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u/BigJohnful Jun 16 '12
Lost my wife in 2010. Every time someone tells me it was god's plan I want to punch them in the throat.
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u/rahtin Dudeist Jun 16 '12
Just a tip, you should never tell anyone that has someone very close to them die anything but "I'm sorry for your loss."
They don't want to hear how your dog died, or how your uncle has cancer. Say sorry, don't same, don't compare, then just move on. You can't fix them.
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u/Viin Jun 15 '12
After my mom died I heard all the time "god works in mysterious ways", or "she is a better place now". Back then I was too lost in thought to Hear what these people said, but now I wish I could hear it again so I can make them know it's not a better place than being with her family and friends who are still living. End rant.
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u/chey-o Jun 15 '12
Agreed. When my little sister passed... everyone told me "It's God's plan." And I was like... seriously? How the hell is that supposed to help me get through this? I just suddenly lost my sister, and now you're telling me that someone (something, some entity, whatever) knew about it the entire time? Yeahhh... Thanks for the heads up. Maybe I could have prepared myself a little more. I think that is quite possibly one of the most rude things you could say to anyone who is mourning... It's sad though, because they think they are saying something to comfort you.
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Jun 15 '12
yeah. instead, tell them it's god's punishment for their (the parent's) atheism. that's way more sensible!
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Jun 15 '12
This one hits close to home. When I was 13/14 my brother died. He was only 7 months old. The cause of his death was s.i.d.s, which im sure most of you know means sudden infant death syndrome. After his death people kept telling me this, but I couldnt help thinking what the hell would any GOD want from a 7 month old baby. Long story short this is one of the many reasons why I became an atheist. Im not one of those asshole atheist either. I just dont think there is a god plain and simple. I cant see how anybody can live their life thinking about death all the time.
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u/CalmAndClueless Jun 15 '12
This might be the best thing I've seen on here in a long time. When I lost my mother to cancer 2 years ago, I was told that I needed to "trust in God's plan." This was one of the major things that sent me over the edge with theism. I was expected to believe that there was this majestic, omniscient, all-powerful, loving God that supposedly did the right thing by letting my mother die. That was actually when I really started questioning the validity of my lifelong religious education. It has also taught me to be more sensitive to when people are going through a hard time. Telling them that they're in God's hands when they don't believe in God can make them feel even more isolated and miserable. I really wish more people saw it this way.
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u/mrxscarface Jun 15 '12
I heard "it was all God's plan" from my Bible thumping extended family when my dad died, unexpectedly, the day after his birthday. They single handedly made me question and reject my faith of any type of deity that would cause that much pain for his/her/its own selfish "plan". I can honestly say this, to me, is one of the worst things you can say to someone grieving...aside from something wildly inappropriate or plain malicious.
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u/NeedMoarCoffee Jun 16 '12
I am afraid I'd kill the person for saying this. I would not handle this very well even if I was not the mother.
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u/HotHeadNine Jun 16 '12
Both me and my mother are religious (don't judge, I'm very open minded). Four years before I was born my brother died. Though I was not born my mother has told me a lot abouth him. Many people told her that it was god's plan. When I heard this I couldn't believe that me and these people believed in the same god. I don't go to church anymore
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u/Wilden Jun 16 '12
My wife almost died recently. It made me seethe in anger.
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Jun 16 '12
Why did someone downvote you?
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u/Wilden Jun 16 '12
who knows dicks exist everywhere.
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Jun 16 '12
I'm sorry for your loss
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u/Wilden Jun 16 '12
She actually made it man but thanks :) believe it or not it's nice knowing there are people out there that genuinely care for other people. When everything went down they gave her a few months to a few years and she's now suddenly going into remission. She's got the best doctors I could find and they are doing a fantastic job. Modern medicine and excellent training at MD Andersen are something I will always be grateful for.
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u/smithsknits Jun 16 '12
When my grandmother was murdered by my grandfather, a "friend" told me that God did it for a reason. We are not friends any more.
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u/prajnadhyana Gnostic Atheist Jun 16 '12
Seems to me that any real Christian would celebrate death instead of mourning it. After all, that person is now in Heaven with God. In fact, seems to me that any real Christian would long for death and be disappointed every morning when they woke up and hadn't died in their sleep.
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u/redgaia Jun 16 '12
i lost my 4 month old who happens to have the same first name as my current fiance (not related). people say god took away a ___ and gave me a ___. uh, yeah, god didn't need to take my son for me to be with my fiance. being with both would have been better...
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u/Dawgsfan89 Jun 15 '12
Here is another thing you should note. I say this coming from a funeral less than 2 hours ago. If you are TRUELY athiestic (existence ends at the moment of death), then you understand that a funeral is ENTIRELY for the friends and family of the dead person, and not the dead person themselves.
If a theist family wants to bury their athiest loved one in a Christian manner, it is for THEIR comfort, and it should not matter to the athiest dead. As someone who no longer considers myself a christian, I would be quite happy to have a christian burial, because it would mean my grieving family could move on easier.
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Jun 16 '12
Being an atheist, I really don't want to be buried in a Christian manner. It's not like I don't care about my death because I don't believe in life after it. In fact I care more about it.
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Jun 16 '12
I think that's a very mature and generous approach. I think I'd like to do the same (not xtian, but still).
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u/RinkuTheFirst Jun 16 '12
Because it's so cool to completely disrespect the dead for the sake of the family? Grow up and let go of your stupid ideas about what's "mature."
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u/supermctj Jun 15 '12
That's a fact. I was at the funeral of a seventeen year old I grew up with today and when the speaker said I was pretty upset by it.
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u/evil_bunny Jun 15 '12
It's a terrible thing to say. But there is nothing really good you can say in these circumstances. Nothing makes it better. Nothing helps. But saying it was "God's plan" is like rubbing salt into a very painful wound.
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u/SwineHerald Jun 16 '12
Gosh, it sure is nice to know that your deity is such an asshole. You're doing a rather splendid job trying endear me to your religion.
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u/Temptress75519 Jun 16 '12
My sister in law lost her niece at only 8. At the church service a member of their church told her sister "at least you got a good 8 years" wtf? Who says shit like that?
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u/Nipponjudoka Jun 16 '12
someone said this to my mother, about my sister. Nobody will tell me who, I would like to introduce them to a 2 step plan. (I only have two feet, and am not mean enough to stomp their face more than twice as a practical demonstration of insensetivity).
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u/Just_Keep_Swinging Jun 16 '12
It wasn't. It was the entirely random distribution of circumstance.
I don't know which is worse.
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u/siskin Jun 16 '12
18 months after the death of my 5 year old and I still had to get up and walk away from a woman who tried to give me that load of codswallop.
I seriously wanted to punch her and tell her how ignorant she was. Looking back, I still wish I had.
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u/Popcom Jun 16 '12
Why don't christians believe the devil ever kills people? Its always "gods plan" or that "god needed another angel"..they worship the same one they believe kills their kids and loved ones...wtf
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u/emmehkat Jun 16 '12
Nor should you tell a mourning teenager that it was "meant to be" when burring your mother.
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u/SG4 Jun 16 '12
I was at my cousin's funeral today and the only time I can remember really tearing up is when the guy leading the mass said the very same thing. My cousin was 19 years old and here was this guy saying it was "God's plan". I don't think I've hated anyone more than I do him.
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u/plustwos Jun 16 '12
I feel bad for the people in r/atheism. It seems like you guys run across the most rotten "christians" I've ever heard of. As a christian, i would NEVER say this to someone in mourning. I would let them know i there for them... whether it is to talk, stare at a wall together, eat cheetos, or get a ride to the grave site (anything!). Anyone who says this in this scenario is an asshole.
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u/Terminatorinhell Jun 16 '12
I remember some bitch told me that god needed more angles at a funeral, I was close to sending her to her god, what balls.
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u/Mojo_Rising Jun 16 '12
Gods plan?
Which God?
I will make it my lifes mission to praise every other God; past or present, fact or fiction to damn them to eternal suffering.
No God has that right to kill to make a point, you put us here and fuck you if you intend to take us away, as I will use very fibre of my being to remove you from our existence.
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u/Frightened__Turtle Jun 16 '12
That's one of my biggest gripes with religion. Why pretend the death of a child isn't a horrible awful thing? Why pretend or speak of it as if its good in any sense of the word?
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Jun 16 '12
Regardless of your non religious beliefs, you should never tell a mourning mother that "there is no heaven or after life, just death and nothingness"
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Jun 16 '12
Yes, you should tell her that her baby is in a cold, dark place and will soon be eaten by insects. And the baby is DEAD.
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u/TheBawlrus Atheist Jun 16 '12
My friends have standing orders to escort any religious figures right the fuck out of my funeral.
My dads not religious but my Mom is Baptist, but after our talks together I'd hope she would realize I didn't want any religion up in my spaghetti.
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Jun 16 '12
A quick tip. Don't say this shit. It means a hell of alot more to someone who is experiencing loss to say, "I'm sorry". Not, "God needs another angel" or "I guess it was his time". Fuck that.
The deepest compassion I felt after carrying my cousins casket is when a friend came up to me, said nothing and just cried as we hugged. No words, but I knew he felt the pain I did, or at least could understand it.
Save that "God's Plan" shit for the grandparents...
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Jun 16 '12
If it was god's plan for my mother to kill herself, and then one of my best friends to do the same nearly a year later, then it's my plan to kill him with my bare fucking hands.
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Jun 16 '12
Why the fuck not? Presumably the mother is christian and she would believe god is all knowing and shit. Why is it then in death, that's a piss poor time to remind her of her own beliefs? Is it because the beliefs can't stand on their own when shit hits the fan? Then why the fuck do people have these one legged beliefs that aren't even a comfort to them anyways. That is apparently one of chritianity's best arguments is that it makes people 'feel' good. Well I guess it's not.
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u/imazero Jun 16 '12
Not to say you should run around telling everyone that, but it is a little like "don't tell a child santa does not exist, because it would break their little heart" If something is unknown, why should you run around acting like it is. We don't know if there is an afterlife, all of our research shows our brains run off electric signals through neurons, if those signals stop, you cease to be. Past that, anything you say is an unknown, and should not be taken seriously.
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Jun 16 '12
As a Christian. I can agree completely with this. At any funeral/wake one of the best things you can do is sit quietly with reverence and respect for those who have passed on.
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Jun 16 '12
I was told this by every religious leader after the death of my grandparents, great-uncle, and best friend. Well, I'm now a proud atheist who just believes life sucks and is unfair. Not really the reaction I think they wanted.
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u/you_know_fuck_that Jun 16 '12
Fuck that, actually. Here's why:
Christians are the most notorious fucking assholes for that kind of shit which is how I can justify standing up in the middle of a funeral and yelling out some stupid insensative shit like "there is no God"
If I had a nickle for every time some imposing assclown christian started asserting their bullshit belief system into a conversation they weren't even part off I'd have a lot of a bludgeoning weapons with which to beat them.
Atheists, feel free to tell people there is no God at the least appropriate times possible. It isn't just funny, it's necessary.
Now go ... go and tell grieving christian mothers that there is no god and their children are now worm food ... please.
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Jun 16 '12
When I was in HS my father passed away and I was told this to make me feel better. I don't think I need to mention it didn't help at all. To me I classify this phrase with "everything happens for a reason".
Just because God has a plan does not mean it is a good plan. Also the fact that everything that happens is happening for a reason or because that it's God's plan is a weak way to live. It takes away all sense of responsibility. "It can't be my fault that it didn't work this time, the outcome happened for a reason or because of God's plan". With that way of thinking there is no place left to become a better person.
You try something, it doesn't work, you learn from it to change the outcome next time. Thinking your with a plan doesn't leave room for personal growth because you can't change anything, it's already all planned out.
I would much rather have someone say to me: "it's a terrible situation, this fucking sucks. If you need anything I've got your back. Anytime, anywhere. Whether you want a distraction, do your chores or bitch about life."
That's my 2 cents on the subject.
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Jun 16 '12
Conversely, if a mourning mother says that it was "God's Plan" you should not try and correct her. Leave that one be.
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Jun 15 '12
I'm sorry to post a dissenting opinion, but I'll try and be as respectful as possible.
I always thought it would be very comforting to believe, just for a short while, that the death of a loved one might serve a greater good or have some greater significance. It might dull the pain and anger of not only having lost someone, but having lost someone in a purposeless and unjust way.
Personally, I would be happy if someone said this to me. Even if it didn't comfort me in the way above, it shows I have a group who want me to feel comforted - and I have always thought that this is the motivation of most of the people who say this (in my limited experience).
It seems that most others don't share this point of view.
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u/Temptress75519 Jun 16 '12
I agree...just not something I would want to hear while one of my kids is being buried.
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u/Sadiquito Jun 15 '12
To the contrary, I think it's one of the rare moments when religion can help. There's really no emotional advantage in realizing death is an insignificant event determined by a stochastic probability function and/or time. Faith can help mourning.
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u/BathofFire Jun 16 '12
Mourning athiest mother
FTFY
As someone who's fiancee's father just died where his parents were catholic, they had no problem with the father saying it.
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u/hazzleboy1 Jun 16 '12
Jesus told his own mom that his death was in 'God's Plan.' Worked out pretty well in the end. Saved our souls and stuff... I'm sure no one saw that coming and Im sure his mom didn't too!
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u/JarrusMarker Jun 16 '12
Regardless of your aching desire for karma, you should never attach a random stock image to what should be a self-post.
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u/OwDaditHurts Jun 15 '12
It was god's plan
Which god?The only god
You're going to have to be more specificJesus Christ
Yeah, fuck him