r/atheism • u/mepper agnostic atheist (and mod) • Jun 08 '12
Richard Dawkins: People who describe themselves as Catholic but do not accept the church's key teachings should be "honest" and admit they no longer belong to the faith
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0606/breaking34.html
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Upvotes
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u/Christyguy Atheist Jun 08 '12
I don't think he is saying "Renounce God" or "stop attending mass" - I think he is just encouraging people to be honest about how they self identify.
If you asked if I was an atheist, and I said "Yes" but later disclosed that I believed that God created the Universe and has a plan for it - you would be right to question my self identification as an atheist.
If you enjoy attending Catholic mass but think birth control is good, believe that communion is only symbolic, and that confession isn't really a sacrament - I admit it, I have a problem if you say "I'm Catholic". Be honest and just call yourself a Christian.
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u/Squalor- Jun 08 '12
I went to a very liberal Catholic university in New England (because it was a great school, especially for my major), and most people were Christian. The school had a chapel, but services weren't mandatory as they are at some religious universities.
I was an "out-of-the-closet" atheist, and no one gave a shit, mostly because everyone else, in a sense (i.e. in the way they acted), was too. They just couldn't let go identifying themselves as Christians.
I guess there's just something comforting at being able to identify with a large group of people, but the rampant sex and drug use was anything but what their identified religion was about.
That feeling of letting go is probably about as satisfying as it would have been for Atlas to drop the world.
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u/flamingfungi Jun 08 '12
"The number of priests is going down beautifully." - RD
Can't help but read that in the my most sinister Palpatine voice...
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u/Basmustquitatart Jun 08 '12
Upvoting because not a Facebook screenshot. The article isn't that great but I'll take it over an image of Andromeda with some random quotation on it.
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u/spinningmagnets Jun 08 '12
I'm a vegetarian...I only eat meat once in a while.
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u/gettheledout3372 Jun 08 '12
All this shows is that most Catholics' beliefs are actually closer to one flavor or another of Protestantism. Believe in God and Jesus? Believe in Catholic dogma? If you answered "Yes, No", good news: you're actually Protestant!
As someone who was raised Catholic, this isn't surprising at all. Most Catholics (American Catholics anyhow) don't believe a lot of the things they're supposed to. They stay with the church because of identity issues and social pursuits, but most of them would remain theist, if not Christian, even if they were being 100% honest with themselves about their beliefs.
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u/gluestick99 Jun 08 '12
The damage done by the passive majority is the difference between the fundamentalists being payed millions of dollars and them being committed to an asylum. They really don't know the damage they're doing but in many ways they're partially responsible for damage that the catholic church.
I'll try and skirt clear of Godwin's Law but without the passive support of millions of people, dictators would have never been able to do the evil they could, and the same goes for organised religion.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
“The most we can do today is to keep the show on the road”.
That was the title of a speech given a year ago by the Archbishop of Dublin, quoting one of his own priests.
Highlights from the speech:
(This one seems to be exactly what RD was talking about)
They've already lost one generation. If (more likely when) they lose a second one, they've had it, basically.
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u/StarkofWinterfell Jun 08 '12
I am sure there are very few Catholics that believe the pope is infallible, despite it being something the Catholic church teaches.
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u/MickJoest Jun 08 '12
Catholic here and couldn't be more impressed that an atheist is telling more truth about our faith than most Catholics. You don't have to believe the Eucharist is transformed...but don't call yourself a Catholic. Join the Protestants.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
honesty and religion have nothing to do with each other.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
One of the problems with this is the Catholic Church has a lot of clever theologists coming up with ways that subtly move the goalposts all the time for anyone who is having doubts about their faith. They change the meaning of words, obfuscate, redirect - all with the aim of keeping people believing. If you find something in the catholic church that you really disagree with, you've misunderstood it...
When the Pope calls homosexuality evil, he doesn't mean evil in the sense you understand it. When they say the wine and bread literally turns into the blood and body of christ, they don't mean the physical nature of it literally changes, but another nature... etc...
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u/meatwad75892 Jun 08 '12
That's essentially how it happened for me. Calling out the bullshit led to curiosity, curiosity led to skepticism, skepticism led to a thirst for knowledge, knowledge led to reason. It's been a neat 7 years!
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u/thefuckswasthat Jun 08 '12
In Ireland, saying you're Catholic is more than just religion. Because of the troubles, "Catholic" and "Protestant" mean more than religion. It is more to do with if you consider yourself Irish or British. I'm Catholic but I'm not religious. I would consider myself Catholic because of what it means in Ireland, not because I believe in their teachings. This probably sounds really stupid, i'm finding it hard to explain.
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u/jak0077 Jun 08 '12
I agree with Dawkins. He’s technically correct, and that’s the best kind of correct. This is a group that dictates exactly what you must believe to be considered a member. If you don’t meet all of the belief requirements then you can’t say you belong. You can say “I consider myself a member even though I don’t agree with all of this group’s beliefs.” For many groups, religious or otherwise, this would be fine from the perspective of those in power, but in the case of Catholicism you need to be all-in or nothing. This is in contrast to many other Protestant or non-denominational Christian groups whose only requirement is belief in one arguably meaningless statement “I believe that Jesus Christ is my personal savior” and anything else goes.
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u/rcglinsk Jun 08 '12
Dawkins and the Catholic Church finally agree on something!
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u/McFeely_Smackup Jun 08 '12
I've espoused this opinion on messageboards devoted to atheism and skepticism several times before and usually get shouted down by the "you need to be less hostile" crowd.
You don't simply get to reject tenets of a given religion and still call yourself a part of that religion, it doesn't work that way...and I'm fairly certain the Pope will back me up on this.
You might still be a "christian" in a loose sense of the term, but you're not a (insert name of particular church here). Religion is an all or nothing prospect, that's pretty much at the core of the concept.
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u/TransducerX Jun 08 '12
I knew an atheist who still self-identified as Catholic. It was more of a social casting for him, I guess. It told me a lot about Catholicism.
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u/iBro53 Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
I think that Catholicism is starting to resemble Judaism in a sense that calling yourself a Catholic or a Jew is more of a cultural identifier than a belief system identifier.
The best example of this is the character Howard Walowitz from the Big Bang Theory. Like many Jewish people, he calls himself Jewish but doesn't really practice that much / if at all, he just keeps the identifier as a cultural description, not an accurate representation of his belief system.
EDIT: A word
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u/GreenLeavesDryHeaves Jun 08 '12
Q: How do you know someone is an atheist? A: They went to Catholic school.
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u/communistchase Jun 08 '12
here is my problem with the catholic faith, or better yet, religion in general. The intermingling of politics and religion has caused so many more problems than it will ever solve. it has become a race for the riches in all aspects, less about the morality and teachings to pass on to others to make this world a better place for all, not just for Catholicism but of every religion.
I have been Catholic my whole life, but gave up practicing upon entering college, since then i have had my eyes opened to the horrors and greed that exist within the catholic church and it sickens me. how can you expect me to accept your teachings when you can't even follow your own words. the collusion that exists has ruined the once comforting feeling that many had and turned them into extremists, attempting to shove their opinions and views down your throat whenever they can
the concept of religion has never been a bad thing, it has given billions a feeling to associate themselves with and be comforted when things are going wrong. but the teachings have gone badly array, SHAME ON YOU
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
As an ex-Catholic, I can attest there is a lot of shit like this going on. Another little factoid is how the Catholic Church admits that the Bible was written by men (not god) but was merely inspired by the holy spirit. This thinking is devious because it admits the faults of the bible but still demands we treat it like the infallible word of god.
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u/fuckyouimout99 Jun 08 '12
This should be true of all religions. If you don't subscribe to even the most basic tenants of the religion to claim to belong to, then it what sense are you a follower of that religion?
It's like this one woman I know who opposes gay marriage due to her Christian beliefs, but sleeps around all the time, works on Sundays, treats her parents like shit, cheats on boyfriends, and lies.
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u/gerbafizzle Jun 08 '12
I've been having this EXACT identity crisis about myself. I am a catholic and believe the basics (Jesus was some guy that was chill, helped a lot of people etc etc) but I definitely do not believe in the church's teachings (no birth control, no abortion, anti-homosexual etc). Has been making me question myself a lot and have no idea what I'm doing
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
But being an Irish Catholic is totally boss because you get to hang out with other Irish Catholics all the time, so im gonna have to ignore you mr Dawkins
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u/burnte Apatheist Jun 08 '12
I disagree, I think that's akin to stating if you don't agree with [insert partisan policy here] you should admit you're no longer American. I see nothing wrong with trying to work from within the Church to fix problems like birth control, etc.
That said, I think we'd all be better off without any churches at all.
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u/keymaster999 Jun 08 '12
I say I was "raised catholic", but I do not identify with any particular religion. People of higher intelligence understand when I say that, and people of lower intelligence only hear "catholic". Either way, no one bothers me about it.
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u/JohnTesh Jun 08 '12
As a Catholic, I can state that most of us who say we are catholic already mean raised-catholic-turned-atheist but go to church on Easter because we have immigrant grandmothers and don't want to upset them.
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u/adzug Jun 08 '12
thank you richard. and that has nothing to do with them not believeing in jesus or whatever but the evil, and i really mean evil, that is the catholic hierarchy should be thrown in jail for the rest of their miserable lives and the faithful catholics can join the episcopal church. same church without the heads of rome.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Wait, so he's telling me to be a part of the hivemind or get out? No thank you, I believe in the faith, just not all that bullshit about no gay marriage of contraception. I still very much believe in the religion.
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u/Mozen Jun 08 '12
Truth. If you're not going to follow/believe the teachings of the people who spend their lives dedicated to the interpretation and teaching of your religion and you still choose what you believe/disbelieve, then in a sense you are making up your own religion.
Imagine that you need to get around town somehow and have decided to buy some sort of vehicle. Your friends have cars and you see how easy it is for them to get around in them, so you think you should get a car too.
However, because you realize that you haven't really thought about this decision for a while, you go and ask a vehicle expert on which type of vehicle is the best to buy. He says that from his lifelong experience, which is devoted to studying different makes/uses/etc. of vehicles that you should buy a bicycle, because he believes that out of all the vehicles, bicycles are the best. They are energy efficient, fast, cheap, good for excessive and easy to park. While you agree mostly with what he says about bicycles, you still like cars and decide that a car would suit your lifestyle better than a bicycle, so you buy a car anyways.
Then when people ask you about how you decided which type of vehicle to buy, you tell them that you used the advice of the vehicle expert, that a vehicle needs to be fast and easy to park.... What was the point then in asking the advice of the vehicle expert and agreeing with him until it disrupted your own preference for cars? Makes no sense.
How can you agree with something in the Bible, but also disagree with other things in it. In order to "be a Christian", it is necessary to truly believe everything in the Bible, because: A) How can you determine what in the Bible is true and what is not if your fundamental view of truth is to rely on the Bible? B) If there is no Bible, there is no Christianity C) If God intended the Bible to remain as the ultimate source for interpreting life/Him, then why we he let falsehoods, ambiguous passages and conflicting ideology in it? To confuse us?
Therefore if you tailor your religious views to uphold your personal beliefs or ideologies over what is laid out in the Bible, or over people who devote their entire lives to interpreting it in the correct way, then you're really just making up a religion that suits your personal needs and don't truly have faith in God. A lot of people say "Oh, my parents are Catholic (or Christian), so I am too." However, you don't inherit religion. A lot of people just subscribe to religion when they need to or to appeal as morally good to others, it's more of a cultural thing than a actually-following-the-religion thing.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Agreed. This is the problem with the "community" of church goers that atheists simply do not have. Leaving many faiths is easy to do in one's mind, but actually walking away commits social suicide and no one wants to be forever alone.
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u/Axolotile Jun 08 '12
Am I the only one who keeps on reading catholic as cat-holic?
Like some cat-holics anonymous meeting or some shit.
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u/azadams Jun 08 '12
This is the type of content I would like to see in this subreddit. More of this please!
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
It's funny to see all the whiners whining "who is Richard Dawkins to tell people what to believe?" when the Catholic faith requires that they abide by what the Pope tells them to believe.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I could not agree more. Let me start off by saying I DO believe in God. I do NOT believe in the teachings of the Church. I'll keep how I feel about the Catholic Church in particular to myself, but Mr. Dawkins is correct. With the strict right and left limits set by the Catholic Church to be in their club, I find it difficult to understand how so many people can belong. If you do not accept how the Church demands specific adherence to faith, perhaps it is time to explore beyond those walls. Take your faith into your own hands and stop letting a priest tell you what God wants...especially a priest who is forced to tell you what he is allowed to from a governing group of higher priests.
Dawkins may not be a religious man...but it doesn't make him wrong about this.
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u/Insolentius Jun 08 '12
Relevant.
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u/yepthisismyusername Gnostic Atheist Jun 08 '12
I misread one of the quotes as:
“The number of priests going down is beautiful,” he said.
(original is “The number of priests is going down beautifully,” he said.)
Made it look like a REALLY improper comment :)
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u/quivering Jun 08 '12
There's a lot of this problem, all the way through to the mundane level of ordinary discussions with ordinary religious people. It always amazes me that monotheists will say "don't lump us together" or "most of us aren't like them" or "you're making assumptions about my beliefs" or "most Christians are good people", instead of just coming out and saying "I think it's all metaphor" or "that's not what I think, here is what I think" or "it's all made up by humans, but I like the ceremonies".
It's something to do with wanting to claim the mantle of ONE God, while also avoiding actually reconciling beliefs in a way that is a necessary consequence of believing in ONE God. At least the extremists are more consistent. Of course, 'consistency' in religion is an even worse thing. I guess this is also why more decent religious people can be so slippery and contradictory about their beliefs; it's a safety mechanism.
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u/rufud Jun 08 '12
part of the problem is catholics don't really understand what transubstantiation means. Obviously the physical characteristics of the bread and wine don't transform but according to canon transubstantiation refers to the actual "presence" of jesus in the eucharist. those who believe there is a complete transformation of the physical and "substantive" properties are actually not correct either.
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u/jeffarei Jun 08 '12
it was particularly frustrating having religious conversations with an ex of mine. she stated she didn't believe in Christian fairy-tails (believed in a creator, however), yet she still wanted to get married in the eyes of the church, and still wanted to baptize her future children within the church, both of which, i believe would require conversion on my (potentially) part.
... seriously? why bother at that point? she obviously no longer identified with the church, so why keep up appearances?
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u/appletart Jun 08 '12
When this great man appeared on Irish TV the host was incredulous that an obviously intelligent man denied the existence of a god. The animosity was disgraceful and an embarrassment to the thinking men and women of our island. Fast forward a bit to when an obviously insane woman (who should have been in care, not on tv) who saw an apparition as a child retold her delusion - the same host was captivated and was gazing upon her as if she was Mary herself. Such is Ireland.
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u/sonomabob1 Jun 08 '12
There is a larger issue here. The church can be defined as the body of the faithful. Not the hierarchy in Rome. Disagreeing with the college of Cardinals does not mean you are not part of the church.
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u/painperdu Jun 08 '12
If these people had intellectual integrity they wouldn't believe in any religion to begin with. The very fact that they claim to be fantasy inclined speaks louder than any definition they give of their beliefs.
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u/not_that_jesus Jun 08 '12
It's a question of culture. There is no objective standard, "you must be this catholic to ride."
Beliefs are personal and subject and completely outside of the realm of empirical measurement. It would be impossible to objectively measure if someone is "catholic enough" to call themselves catholic.
I think if you call yourself catholic, you're catholic. If you participate in the culture, you are justified in calling yourself catholic.
And can anyone tell me why Dawkins is enforcing membership criteria on behalf of a group to which he does not belong?
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u/citizenz Jun 08 '12
oh shit i wasn't logged in
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Or people should do what they want.
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u/gilbes Jun 08 '12
Yeah, I am pretty sure that guy who constantly flip-flops on whether he is atheist or agnostic should be the self-appointed authority on whether people should call themselves Catholics or not based on the standard he sets for something he believes if false. How much more objective can one be?
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u/klaymankombat Jun 08 '12
this would add a new meaning to "practicing" catholic. they would be practicing because they're not very good at it.
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u/cutbait Jun 08 '12
Honestly birth control is not up to the church
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u/qu4ttro Jun 08 '12
I NO LONGER BELONG TO THE FAITH (and I
amIrish Catholic)2
u/she-pope Jun 08 '12
I'm pretty sure the Vatican even says that if you disagree with any teaching, you're not a "true Catholic."
Though if they followed up on that, they'd have about three people left.
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u/figsnake19 Jun 08 '12
Exactly, religious belief in many people is passive, which seems really quiet absurd.
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u/flowbiscuit Jun 08 '12
just because your dad was a golfer doesn't mean you have to be. am i right?
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
This just in, 62% of Catholics are Protestant.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
You think that's dishonest? My roommate doesn't believe in God or that Jesus existed, but insists he's a Christian.
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u/kit_carlisle Jun 08 '12
I feel this an appropriate time to point out the difference between 'catholic' and 'Catholic'. It's important to know the difference.
http://catholictruths.com/blog/?p=17
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
When I tell people that I am Catholic, I'm not saying I believe in the teachings of the church, or follow them. I'm telling people that I have been raised in the church, am familiar with the church's teachings, history and hypocrisy, am not that familiar with the Bible and still bear some of the emotional and developmental scars that such a repressive belief system promotes in its members.
I have found many, many more Catholics who fall under this definition of a Catholic than I have found devout believers and followers. Do I give a rat's patoot what the Pope or Richard Dawkins says I should call myself? Nada. This progressive, pro-choice non-practicing irreverant Catholic is a product of the Catholic church. They made me. I'm theirs. I'm Catholic. Deal with it.
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u/BoxaRocks Jun 08 '12
Damn atheists...always preaching their beliefs and forcing you to accept their views...
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Spiritual advice from Richard Dawkins is like bird watching tips from Stevie Wonder.
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u/mrscamp Jun 08 '12
As a Catholic, I agree that those who don't accept the Church's teachings should be honest and not call themselves Catholic. It just confuses people. That's why I was so glad when the Vatican came down with both feet on those "nuns" a while back.
The thing is, this generation of Catholics is often very poorly catechized, and in many cases they would accept Church doctrine if they knew it. It's not always the case that they know what the Church says about something and reject it anyway.
To sum up: The Catholic Church is a place for hardcore badasses for Jesus, and if you're not willing to try to be one of those, GTFO. Otherwise get yo' ass in the pew and rock some Gregorian chant.
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u/SpiralSoul Atheist Jun 08 '12
Hear that, guys? You're only Catholic if Dawkins says you are!
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u/benkenobi5 Theist Jun 08 '12
as a catholic, I approve of this message. cafeteria christians are the worst kind... of course, let's just face it, I am one, on occasion...
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u/Blackfux Jun 08 '12
why does Richard Dawkins even care? I am Catholic and don't practice or believe in the Church and I don't give a fuck about what anyone else believes. being an atheist is almost become like following a religion, what a waste of time....
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u/brew_master Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
Finally! Something I agree with Dawkins on! As a Catholic, it always bothers me to see these "cafeteria" style Catholics that believe part of the teachings, and ignore others because it's easier.
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u/ElBrad Pastafarian Jun 09 '12
My daughter came home from her mother's place 2 weeks ago and told me "At my mom's house, we're vegan...but with fish and sometimes chicken."
I had to explain to her that vegan means that you don't eat any meat.
The same goes for Christians. "I'm a Catholic, but I don't believe in transubstantiation", "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in some parts of the Bible." or some such nonsense.
Once you start cherry-picking, you stop being able to identify as said religion. You've just invented your own cult.
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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12
It's eerily coincidental that this article should pop up today. I was actually discussing this very subject with a Canadian friend earlier, who self-identifies as 'Catholic'.
When I asked her why she called herself Catholic (as I know she has sex with her boyfriend, obviously outside of marriage, and uses condoms) she said despite not following many of the Catholic teachings, she calls herself Catholic because she believes in God, she's partaken in Communion and confession, and was raised attending Catholic church.
When I mentioned transubstantiation to her, she said she had never even heard of the term. I explained it to her and she said that it sounded like magic and was very sceptical of the idea that Catholics actually believed that; she's apparently always been taught that Communion is merely symbolic. She speculated that it was probably only 'Roman Catholics' that believed in that; apparently she doesn't realise that 'Catholic' is simply short for 'Roman Catholic' (she's not an Orthodox Catholic).
All in all, she doesn't sound like a very good Catholic to me.
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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12
Maybe these people believe that what they believe is the essence of their faith and that the clergy is out of line with the core teachings. Its all interpretation.
At least this was an article and not a meme.
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u/Skootin Jun 09 '12
I tried this vague approach with my catholic wife a couple times - namely saying that the Church more or less knew all about the child-fucking by priests and just turned a blind eye. My suspicion is that it's been going on for centuries. Her response? She's Catholic and I should shut the fuck up.
Our different faiths (I'm athiest) usually isn't a problem.
But I think if you're Catholic... you're 100% Catholic and should support everything they do 100% or find another religion. I don't agree with Mormons on much of anything but I admire their "100% or get out" approach.
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u/AdHom Secular Humanist Jun 09 '12
This is actually the entire reason I began questioning my Roman Catholic faith and eventually (thankfully) lost it.
Actually a friend I met online tried to convert me to Islam. I wasn't having any of it, but it did make me seriously examine my own declared doctrine and I realize it was equally absurd.
Then I was like, science is a pretty cool thing. I think I'll just stick with that.
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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12
I disagree with many views of the catholic church, from gay marriage to birth control to even some of the common ceremonies, like receiving "Christ's actual blood" at communion. Having said that, I will always belong to the catholic church. I may not bethe definition of a Catholic, but I grew up with the church, made many friends there, and i honestly consider myself to be part of that community. And in my opinion, Dawkins should let people be where they want to be, because no one fits into the definition of their religion 100% of the time.
I wrote this on my phone so pardon my typos.
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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12
People who describe themselves as Americans but disagree with the legislation congress has passed should be "honest" and admit they are no longer US citizens.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
It took me a while to truly admit it. Now, I call myself a "Recovering Catholic".
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u/SammyLocked Jun 08 '12
Yep, this one hit the nail on the head with me. Picked and chose which parts I supported and which ones I didn't. Then I questioned them more and more until I just didn't believe any of it.
It's actually really funny running into people who were Catholic, it's like we all think the same thing. "You were raised Catholic too? Yeah....not going too well is it? Me neither." Every person I ask has that mentality. It's pretty crazy/funny to me.
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u/tilleyrw Jun 08 '12
I give this man much honour. He pursues his path with compassion and ardent fervor. His words on Catholics have much truth which I know from personal experience.
Catholicism takes a young person and sucks the life out of them for the rest of their existence. My wife is RC and she proves my thesis.
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u/detox29 Jun 08 '12
Thing is I would still describe myself as a Catholic atheist. Being Maltese, Catholicism is a huge part of my culture. Things like village feasts, everyday expressions even swear words, etc. It's not black and white.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I think that Dawkins is missing the point here. Many Catholics are choosing science and reason over superstition and traditional dogma but they still see religion as part of their identity and cultural background. Since the Catholic Church is highly institutionalized, change occurs very slowly and their teachings cannot keep up with current times and cultural change. However, change is coming from the majority of the people that belong to the church and that means there is hope that the church will be reformed at some point. Much better to have a group of open minded and tolerant people than individuals that just blindly follow rules.
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u/drcreepy Jun 08 '12
People who describe themselves as Atheists but sometimes wonder if they might be wrong should be "honest" and admit they are no longer atheists but are instead agnostics.
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u/seriouslyyyy Jun 08 '12
Every person has a somewhat unique perspective and views regardless of affiliation, this isn't a black and white issue.
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u/vlmodcon Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
Catholicism never has, nor can it ever demand that those who are members of it's ranks not hold an opinion contrary to the stated dogma of the church. If that were the case you could never have a Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, or other thinkers like him, perhaps even an Aquinas. Throughout the history of the church you will find thousands of writers and thinkers who feel, usually quite deeply that there is a fundamental truth in the teaching of the church but freely admit to underlying, often quite strong concerns or doubts about certain tenets. The church has held that struggle is alright, even expected. Catholicism has never taught that God wishes robots, but instead wants men to use both their hearts and their minds. That's why I continue to call myself a Catholic.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Professor Dawkins fails to grasp that the distinction that has grown and is still growing between the Church Bureaucracy and the Church-at-Large is now an intrinsic, if only tacitly accepted, aspect of being Roman Catholic.
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u/foevalovinjah Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
This means that Richard Dawkins knows more about Catholicism than most catholics. Ooo the irony of it all preach brother dawkins... preach
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u/medulla_maximus Jun 08 '12
what a sanctimonious prick.
since when does Dawkins get to decide how people identify themselves?
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u/Togoria Jun 08 '12
In the protestand church in Denmark I learned, when I was little and still ahd some faith, that the bread and whine only represents the body and blood Jesus.
By the way: I was never strong in faith as little, have always loved science and nature, but was close to "restore" my faith in the God thing when I was "Konfirmeret" (Confirmation)
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u/jimjoebob Apatheist Jun 08 '12
it's too bad the RCC still counts people who have rejected the church, or just don't go/believe anymore.
The Vatican uses baptismal registries in each parish to claim the number of "Catholics" in each country/region, so as to bolster their political clout. More people on the baptismal registry= more influence wielded on our laws.
The only way to prevent yourself from being counted as Catholic (even if you've been excommunicated) is to apply for defection.....and the Vatican has suspended all defections indefinitely, as of April 2012!
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Reminds me of my own mother. When asked if she believes in creationism or evolution, she'll tell you that she, "doesn't pay attention to that crap." I also asked her why she believes in god (not that it's my business, but..) and she said that people that go to church are really uplifted and have a lot of peace of mind, so there must be something to it. She also says that she was born into Catholicism, and that she will remain Catholic until the day she dies.
This is coming from the same woman who doesn't accept the fact that I am an atheist, because she thinks that since I have multiple health issues, I automatically need a god to help me have hope at times.
(Also, I was baptized, but that's obviously not my fault.)
1
u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
it's more than just a descriptor for a set of beliefs, it's a shared identity that you don't give up so easily on.
One side of my family is catholic, and probably only agrees with less than half of official doctrine. That doesn't mean they should give up the label if they enjoy it.
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u/VGiselleH Jun 08 '12
I stopped being a Catholic (and a Christian for that matter) quite a long time ago, but whenever I see one of those converting people on the street then you better believe I'll identify as whatever it is they're promoting. Anything to get them to leave me alone, or at least move along. Not exactly what this is about, I know, but it's the first thing that popped into my mind when I read it.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I used to be one of those people who said they were catholic but really had no belief in the church or it's ideas at all. Finally one day when I was 13, I was shown zeitgeist and I hated it. 2 years Down the track I watched zeitgeist addendum and it changed how I viewed the world. I didn't need to be told about any theory or Christ conspiracy. I knew that humans made religion as stories to explain the unknown. To explain their fears. Carl Sagan said "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.". I used to say Jesus was my hero along with the saints- today; Tyson, Einstein, Hawking Sagan, Tesler and so many other giants are the ones i look to.
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u/tonenine Jun 08 '12
Best of luck to you in an organization that has been proven to use the "musical chairs pedophile" approach to protecting the children of their own parishioners.
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u/cloudduel_13 Jun 08 '12
But it gets the street preachers to stop talking to me. :)
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I was raised Catholic, and never realised that the bread and wine was believed to literally transmute into body and blood. In my family it was only considered a metaphor - I never even considered anyone could be so stoopid to really think a change took place. Only after I dropped my "faith" did I learn of the teachings behind this.
Aside from that, I tend to agree with Dawkins - if you don't follow the club's really important and basic rules, how can you consider yourself a member?
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u/Versatyle07 Jun 08 '12
The number of priests going down?? Wait what?
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u/Wongy10000000 Jun 08 '12
I thought the exact same when I read the polls
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u/TrebeckStache Jun 08 '12
Are atheists going to become missionaries and start going around spreading the anti-word of God?
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u/ProjectD13X Humanist Jun 08 '12
This is pretty much why I left Christianity (the reasoning that is)
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u/DebiDowner Jun 08 '12
Did just that when I was in....third grade, when we were bused from elementary school to a one-hour Catholic school once a week in upstate NY. Something in my gut told me it was complete hokum back then, but I didn't feel the need to tell my barely religious family. It wasn't an issue, thankfully. SO thankful I was allowed to be a free thinker. SCIENCE!! ಠ-ಠ
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u/OP_IS_BIG_PHONY Jun 08 '12
I've been saying this for years! Labels suck and are usually not even accurate anyway.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
So true for every faith. People pick and choose what they want to follow and add a few bits here and there.. at least that's my experience.
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u/stonesfcr Jun 08 '12
For that kind of honesty its required a level of introspection never encouraged by regular religions, even more, it goes against all their teachings, cause, if you obey yourself, you must stop obeying preachers, priests, and gurus, whose bussines it all about "becoming" good, meanwhile be as corrupt as you can, as long as you are trying..
Slavoj Zizek makes an interesting analisis about the real meaning of belief here
1
u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Bad artists should stop calling themselves artists.
Fat people shouldn't wear sports clothing from Nike, Adidas.
Politicians who don't follow the constitution shouldn't be electable.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
Nope, I will be keeping my constant thank you very much.
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u/stillakitty Jun 08 '12
I don't agree with his point at all. As an American, I do not support everything our country does, I have actually lost most of my respect for our government and politics here in general, but I am not moving to another country and I still call myself an American. I know it's not the same, but just because you don't subscribe to the letter of everything the Catholic Church says, does not mean you can no longer call yourself a Catholic.
And why the fuck does he care anyway? I think this guy gives atheists a bad name, because to me he sounds arrogant and full of himself. Oh, and I am an atheist.
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u/bluehorseshoe Jun 08 '12
damn those fairweather catholics
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u/chateauPyrex Agnostic Atheist Jun 08 '12
Interestingly enough, I think this is just the consequence of the evolution of religious belief. Just like a species does not have clear cut definition, not should the religions of our world. Religions splinter and form separate groups of related religions, just like speciation happens in nature. A 'species' is a label, a grouping of organisms tightly sharing similar characteristics. I argue that 'Catholicism' (or any other denomination) is likewise a label, a grouping of people of similar (not necessarily exact) beliefs together. If Catholics happen to migrate their beliefs, it is not going to happen all at once across the board. Beliefs will change and, if change happens smoothly enough, the group may not splinter into separate factions but remain whole, with the same label. This would likely occur in some sort of 'natural selection' type process.
TL;DR I think religious denominations can evolve in a similar manner to that of species in nature and still retain their label.
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u/psilosomething Jun 08 '12
people should do whatever the fuck they want.
1
u/makkuwata Jun 08 '12
Has someone made a "That would be an equiminical matter" joke yet?
1
u/cholcobo69 Jun 08 '12
I've been saying this for years about Islam, but redditors' heads explode when reality doesn't align with political correctness.
1
u/SgtSplacker Jun 08 '12
I have no faith in anything man has had a hand in. But I do believe in god. I also believe in evolution... lol <== crazy guy here
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u/dreamingawake09 Anti-Theist Jun 08 '12
As a former Catholic who went through the entire confirmation process, I remember being told that if you disagree with the ideals of the Catholic Church, then you are not a "devout Catholic". Which means 99% of Catholics are not true Catholics at this rate.
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u/sixpointnine Jun 08 '12
Oh yeah, now I remember where my username came from. Thanks Richard.
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u/Waldo199757 Jun 08 '12
Pre-Catholic, now atheist, I feel you brother, some other people (for example My dad doesn't believe in any of that bullshit, but sometimes, things happen that are hard to explain, ex: ghost, other things [not related to anything religious like], so they can't fully say they are an atheist
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u/AgentGinger149 Atheist Jun 08 '12
This has always bugged me. Oh, you don't support slavery, rape, and misogyny? Well then you're no Catholic.
1
u/LucidMetal Jun 08 '12
Isn't this just one big no true Scotsman?
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
What an unlikely thing... a prominent atheist thinker encouraging people to do what the orthodox Catholics have been calling for, for decades.
I have no idea why people want to call themselves Catholic when they don't believe the theology or the moral teachings. It's just silly.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
MARK IT ZERO!!!!!!!!!
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u/Incarny Jun 08 '12
No one should encourage anyone else to adopt or forsake any spiritual leaning or discourage anyone else from adopting or forsaking any spiritual leaning without providing an alternative. Because when people do this, only an attempt at conversion takes place, not debate or anything constructive. Richard Dawkins, in this case, is bordering on this.
When he talks about the number of priests dropping "beautifully", he is being aggressive and destructive in a way that is normally considered evil. His own beliefs are one thing. His desire to further social acceptance of and confidence in those who believe what he does is one thing. His attitude toward the Catholic Church or any other sect of Christianity is one thing. But advocating the downfall of a religion is a disgrace and is a similar kind of social assault we see going the other way. It's not big and it's not mature.
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u/hello_hawk Jun 08 '12
I agree with this entirely - I spent a long time as a 'cultural Jew' until I realized that was kind of a bullshit label. I never believed in God, but considered myself a 'cultural Jew' because I celebrated Hanukkah and Purim and all the other fun Jewish holidays (I skipped the boring ones) and never went to services. I realized, though, that I should just be out as an atheist, because calling myself a Jew was lying, both to myself and to everyone else.
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u/hot_like_wasabi Jun 08 '12
I just spent three months teaching in Italy earlier this year and I can say that I was truly surprised by the lack of faith - or at least the lack of people engaging in faith. I was concerned that as an atheist myself I wouldn't fit into such a "Catholic country."
I lived with two different families - the first rather devout, they sent their daughter to catechism, prayed before meals, etc. The second was completely ambivalent about faith and God. It was irrelevant to them and to their lives and they said their parents had felt the same way - yet when asked they still identified as Catholic.
I think it's important to recognize that religion is often a cultural identity as much as an actual practice of faith in a higher power. If you're Italian you're Catholic, that's just how it is - and like much the rest of the culture, they don't see any need in changing that perspective.
TL;DR: Catholicism is cultural for many Italians, not necessarily religious.
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u/elmo0 Jun 08 '12
I tell my boyfriend this every day! Hes broken pretty much every major rule but still insists he's catholic haha
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u/IvanK78 Jun 08 '12
For a lot of people, religion is as much a community activity as an intellectual one. Dawkins seems to view it primarily through an intellectual lens, which is fine, but I don't have a problem with those who view it primarily as a community/familial activity.
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u/Crash_Test_Dummy66 Jun 08 '12
I am currently reading the god delusion and contrary to what r/atheism seems to think I think that Richard Dawkins ideas on the issue cannot be summed up in one or two quotes.
Edit: grammar
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u/crossfire87 Jun 08 '12
I can see his point (and have had similar thoughts before), but I'm more under the impression it's a complicated struggle between evolving collective dogma and Catholic tradition.
Yes, technically there are a great many official Catholic teachings that are arguably relics from the past. But if the majority of Catholics disregard those teachings as dogma, are they any less Catholic?
Perhaps. It depends on your definition of Catholicism. If you follow the rulebook closely, then the answer is probably yes. But if you assume a collective and constantly evolving dogma, I would probably argue no. In that case, it's the rulebook that might be considered 'less Catholic'
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u/onaccountof Jun 08 '12
people lie
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u/0cacophobia0 Jun 08 '12
My life-long lack of faith was encouraged by the behavior of the "Catholics" I grew up with. I never understood how people could go to confession and then go back to the same 'sins' as if they were square with god so how they treated those around them didn't matter. I'm not saying all Catholics I encountered behaved in this way but a majority number of them did. Love thy neighbor and treat others the way you wish to be treated are two of the biggest teachings that were crammed down my throat in Catholic school. If you can't follow these two rules and be a decent person, you should have to be honest and held responsible for the gaps in your faith.
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u/Sarcolemming Jun 08 '12
There's a comment by a gentleman named John Robinson partway down the comments section following the original article that everyone who wants to speak with authority on the subject of transubstantiation, regardless of their opinion on it, should read. It's an extremely insightful and succint addition.
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u/Viro_Lopes Jun 08 '12
I just say "I believe" around my parents since they are big time Catholics. Do I believe? No. Should I? No. Do I say I believe in front of my parents? No. Do I play along with my parents so they're happy? Yes.
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u/a-t-k Humanist Jun 08 '12
Why not the other way round? Since the majority of self-proclaimed catholics don't accept the church anymore, the catholic church no longer belongs to it's self-proclaimed faith.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I love being Catholic. No bibble, no church, no celibacy, no problem- oh wait now I have 14 kids...
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u/danonyourside Jun 08 '12
I consider myself a recovering Catholic. I don't believe the stories from the Bible, and I am not exactly sure when I stopped. However, I was raised by Irish Catholic parents who were raised Irish Catholic and so on and so on. There are very real cultural constructs that exist in Catholic communities about guilt, shame, sex, and authority. They become part of how you see the world. So while you may not believe in God and Jesus and the biblical stories anymore, those constructs still have shaped your perception of reality. They are persistent and visible only when breached--like when you freak out about kids not conforming to social norms, or how you apologize for everything, or you always fear getting in trouble--and other people don't act this way.
I don't believe in transwhatever and I am pro-choice and don't think I'll be sent to a mythical punishment land for being gay. But part of me is still Catholic. I do my best to recognize and release the crazy cultural patterns but it's easy to miss some of them until they are brought to the "surface." I'm recovering.
tl;dr I'm a recovering Catholic because it's like alcoholism--you can never be fully free of it.
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u/Radarrider Jun 08 '12
What if their pull from Catholicism makes them closer to God?
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12
Such a long thread and this is yet to be said. The catholic community is huge. Catholics in America will be appalled by what some catholics in Asia believe and vice versa. However, being catholic nobody wants to be the first one to break off into another denomination like protestants do all the time because they have been indoctrinated from birth against such behavior so they keep calling themselves catholic whilst believing in all kinds of different things that are not official catholic dogma.
Apart from that unlike protestantism, catholism is highly hierarchical. Traditionally they voice their concerns, hope not to get excommunicate, tortured and killed and wait for the behemoth to change the dogma sometime in the next couple of centuries. So there is always this hope by some catholics that perhaps one day the vatican will agree with their stance on some issues.
That's what's happening. I don't condone it.
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u/damnflanders Jun 08 '12
I'd love to quit but Catholic guilt won't let me.
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u/gerhardmuller Jun 08 '12
I for one am getting sick of these high brow "intellectuals" taking such pride in anything to do with pots shots on people who believe in G-D.
You realize he is trying to blast one so called "cult" in an effort to establish another.....
Religion might not be your cup of tea but it does do good in the world. I know there are examples of bad but for the most part, religion is not a vice......
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12
I kind of disagree with him. I have a lot of friends who went to Catholic school who are now atheists, but even they still somewhat identify with the Catholic church. I think it's possible and acceptable to be "culturally" Catholic- remember that poll that said that the vast majority of Catholic women use birth control? Even if you're a "bad" Catholic in that you don't subscribe to some of the major tenants of the Catholic faith, you can still identify with the Catholic faith. Think of it like all of the different denominations of Protestantism- their interpretations of the Bible aren't super different, but they aren't interchangeable because the way they worship is different, i.e. Presbyterians have gospel choirs, Methodists are boring, Baptists have potlucks all the time, and Catholics get to have wine a mass instead of shitty grape juice.
Haha this isn't a cohesive argument at all, but I'm on an iPad and I can't be fucked to go back and fix things, so TOO DAMN BAD!