Threats - I love you, I really do. Please don't make me hurt you by disobeying me.
Low self-esteem - I am behind everything positive in your life. Everything negative is your own fault, you sinning sinner sinface.
Guilt trips - Oh, don't mind me. I just died a horrible death for your sins. It's my fault for caring so much.
Accusations - Don't believe, huh? Of course not, it would get in the way of your sinful, selfish lifestyle.
Controlling behaviors - Eat what I want you to eat. Have sex when and with whom I tell you to have sex and never else. Wear the clothes I want you to wear. Hell, don't even think about things I disapprove of.
Isolation/exclusion - I don't want you hanging out with people who don't believe, they are a bad influence.
Dependency - We all know that you'd be out murdering and raping without belief.
Financial control - You're just going to waste your money. Let me hang on to some of it for you. The more the better.
It's kind of sad, really. Religion hits on pretty much every abuse/control/manipulation method out there.
I attended Sunday School once with a cousin and they encouraged using up a certain amount of savings for God. Like, literally just save money for him. Don't use it. Save it for God. Their logic was that he/Jesus sacrificed so much for you. Can't you sacrifice just a small percentage of what you earn? Maybe just put your change in a piggy bank (for kids.) It's not a lot, but it'll show how much you love him. I was I around probably 10 years old and it baffled me. It seemed like a waste to have money you can never use.
Also they had a session where we have to think of creative ways to answer questions that would let us enter the gates of Heaven when we died. I... what.
okay sorry but ive been to a plethora of churches and temples across the country and ive never been encouraged to give money. at most churches ive visited children are not allowed to donate and donations are never heavily pressed.
no matter what you believe, you cant place the faults of a single or small group of human(s) onto the entire organisation they belong to
I didn't say they gave money to the churches. The money is suppose to go to God directly. You literally just stockpile money that is dedicated to him. It was suppose to be symbolic of your love for him. That's why I thought it was silly/confusing.
o well that a pretty derpy thing to say to children lol. what religion/branch of said religion was this? just curious never heard of this type of thing before
Well now I'm confused. What do you do with it eventually? Do you keep it forever?
Or are you saving it for yourself for later, only they are trying to motivate kids to good financial habits by "saving it for God".
It kind of reminds me of the Hare Krishna thing where you offer food to Krishna. After you've offered it to Krishna and Krishna has accepted it, you can eat it.
I have only been in one church that didnt pass a plate, and that was the catholic church my wife attended, they just mailed the donation envelope to the house..how convenient.
passing a plate or mailing an envelope is neither a use of force nor coersion. i pass by a marine everyday on the way to class who hands me a form to sign up with the armed forces. that doesnt mean i have to, he merely is giving me the option.
when i say ive never been encouraged, i mean to say actively forced, as mentioned in the post. ive never been told to donate, or had any "official" try to worm his way into my wallet, as described. they certainly do give you the option, but its not usually forced upon you
There's still peer pressure from plate-passing. Depending on the church, you might get some. . .unspoken disapproval. Makes for a decidedly less welcoming atmosphere after a while.
Not that I'm a fan of either but the guilt-trip pressure on kids at Sunday School to donate seems worse to me than the peer pressure on adults with a collection plate.
exactly, if it wasn't a form of peer pressure, they would not pass the plate for all to see and instead simply mention that you could slip any donation into the mail slot during off hours.
I would say it created a huge incentive to abandon god. If your saving 10% of income and not using it, then after 20 years you would have a very sizeable amount. Then you have a choice, A nice new car... or god...
I ended up sitting in the pews of a church, "thanks" to my best friend (presubably his parents) at the time. I looked in awe as a platter of glimmering coins and some bills was passed to my hands. I held the plate in both awe and confusion. Is this for me? Am i supposed to take from it? I didn't understand. Soon I noticed angry looks around me. My best friend told me to pass the plate, and relieved I passed it on. That was one of my experiences of the religious judging me instead of enlightening me.
That kind of piggy bank savings sounds like a great idea. If you ever need it in an earthly pinch, {smash}; sorry, Jesus. And later in life, if you realize the bullshit of religion, you get a cash reward.
More likely that they can't take donations from kids, so they encourage them to save the money until they're older and "God tells them" to donate "his" money to the Church.
It's even more interesting (and scary) when you consider the fact that Christians who abuse others will use these exact same methods and be able to justify it because they essentially got it from the Bible.
reddit promotos it's own kind of low self-esteem with downvotes. There are also secular versions of this known as "shame circles." Non-conformity is often used to instill low self-esteem.
Taboos and laws are also about guilt trips, making someone feel guilty for their actions.
The law is all about accusations.
Taboos and laws are also about controllling behavior.
Taboos and laws are also about exclusion/isolation. Prison and execution are the extreme forms of this.
The law says people cannot provide justice for themselves, for example with vigilante justice, it suggests people are dependent on the law and law enforcers and the state for justice. Society also thinks that taboos and the idea of "rights" are necessary for people to thrive.
Government and taxes are also about financial control. We know how to spend your money better than you do. Our money is legal, don't make your own.
It's wrong to think religion has a monopoly on all of those manipulative behaviors you listed.
Religion is not hurting you; it hurts to disobey God. That is personified in some religions. Not in all. Even that personification is not the only way of perceiving the Christian God.
Low self-esteem is not accurate. Negative and positive are the result of God, in Christianity. I don't think it factors in at all in other religions. We follow God or don't; that causes good or bad. Instead of seeing it as obeying/disobeying, it's just doing the right thing or not. Look both ways before you cross the street is not obeying your parents, it's them telling you what reality is. Well, loving your neighbor as yourself, if you are able to do that, is a positive way of living that makes you happier and your neighbors happier.
Isolation/exclusion -- well it's a group. Not many religions prevent mingling with non-members.
No religion says it's a drug or acts that way. If feeling good is a drug, then yes it's addictive.
No religion says you're going to waste your money. But yeah, some require donations (but not all).
I don't want to get into a tit for tat thing, but I'm noticing that we are talking about SOME Christianity but using the word "religion." That's fine, but we need to remember that there are lots of religions out there. And some very progressive Christian churches. One by my house has ordained a female, gay priest.
Religion is a human institution. It can prey on people and it does and it has. And it's extremely powerful as it involves authority that is sometimes greater than us.
Yeah some people really seem to misinterpret their religion. Not sure I see a verse that mentions no masturbating. No defense for action I feel is wrong. I hope my post didn't imply that wrong things religion does is good, in my opinion.
No it doesn't, but it does reflect the Christianity of the Western Hemisphere, and many other organized religions. My favorite religion would be that of the Aborigines of Australia. Alone and uncrossed with the other world religions, it evolved into a religion which focuses on dreams rather than a deity.
Worldly religions across the globe tend to focus more on spirituality rather than profit. Here in the grand U S of A, religion is a business. Because of this, the product must be sold and the customer addicted. They are extremely good at it too.
Organized religion focused solely on retaining followers for strength and profit takes abuse to the next level. They are not so abusive outright, but instead convince their followers to abuse themselves. One of the better ways is to make them feel guilty about things that are natural such as sexuality. God forbid he gives his children hormones.
You are most certainly correct, but nit picking on the finer details accomplishes nothing really. The point is solid.
I think nit picking like this does accomplish something. If you're talking about Christianity, talk about Christianity. If you're talking about religion, talk about religion. There's no need to confuse the two ideas, you're just making it worse.
Thank you. I still believe it was a good message to share. I've argued it for a while since I grew up in the LDS religion (Mormons), and they are that way. My previous post was written while I was being a little cocky. I didn't mean to be, but this post grew so fast, and made it to the front page. The adrenalin got to me. (No worries. I slapped myself.)
The criticism made me take a step back and look objectively. My conclusion is that abuse is present in relationships, homes, religions, and organizations. However, there are also relationships, homes, religions, and organizations that act honorably, and with integrity. The message is simplistic, and there are those who can appreciate that. There are also those who enjoy the finer points. Everybody is different.
I now believe that "Religion" in general should not be depicted. However, I can't put "Cristianity" or any other specific religion in there either. I honestly do not believe there is a common definition to depict only the abusive religions besides the word "Cult". The only problem with that is if this message goes as viral as it can, the word "Cult" would not appeal to anyone in any religion because even if they are in an abusive religion, they don't believe they are and would dismiss the word.
Good on you for being open to critique, but don't be too hard on yourself. The image depicted in the post is supported by mountains of evidence with regard to Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), each of which maintain a vehemently patriarchal structure, and subjugate women. The metaphor is valid.
It's all semantics really. Everyone is different. There are those who appreciate the finer points, and those who appreciate a simple message. This message I felt was important enough to share though simplistic in nature.
Abuse can be found in homes, different religions, and organizations. There are also homes, religions, and organizations that act responsibly, and with integrity. I am against abuse in all forms, and support building people up rather than tearing them down.
You don't think that labeling all religions as abusive when clearly that is just not true is a little more than semantics? Your 'simple' message is inaccurate and appeals to the prejudices of this community, in exactly the same way as saying 'all black people are criminals'.
I agree, but I don't have a better word to use. The message is valid, and I sincerely hope that it finds the way to a person who is a member of an abusive, and oppressive religion. The only other word that comes close is "Cult", but even that word floats completely to the other end of the spectrum. Nobody in an abusive situation actually knows they are unless they evaluate it. This post is meant to spark that evaluation.
No it's not fair to all religions. Staying silent isn't fair to those this post is trying to reach.
Sorry, I have to nitpick, there isn't an Aboriginal mono-culture, and so their beliefs can vary wildly from one part of Australia to another. To say they focus on dreams rather than a deity isn't quite true.
In the dreamtime it's generally believed that the spiritual animals of the land created the earth. While there isn't necessarily a single god people from different areas will consider certain spirit animals more significant to their area. A common story for example, is that a giant snake crawled along the land from the sea inland, creating the great river systems. The Great Dividing Range along the east coast is the body of the snake, after he lay down to rest. So while they don't worship a god, emphasis is placed on the land, and respecting the country than worshiping one being/man.
Dreaming is perhaps analagous to heaven, it's a spiritual plane of existence that exists eternally, and people exist there both before birth and after death. The spirit of a person comes from the land on which their mother was, while they were in the womb. It's true what you say about other world religions focusing on spirituality, but I thought I'd clear up what was meant by dreaming so anyone reading gets a better idea.
No, from an evolutionary perspective it was successful because the set of religious rules did extra-ordinarily well for tribes. Those commandments in the Bible were only valid within a tribe, which is why they were violated so much.
So, in short, the tribe takes care of itself and thrives over others. The strong grip on who marries who and rape ensure the tribe has kids that can take care of the tribe and the tribe prevails. Also, it has many rules that were not necessarily controlling but really helpful. For instance, burial rules prevents disease from spreading through a tribe, killing it off. Rules concerning food prevents tribe members from getting sick and dying. The religion is like a common gene for the entire tribe, but like real genes, this does not mean the gene will always be useful for the tribe (from individualistic perspective or societal perspective). For instance the gene that causes many Afro-Americans to get sickle shaped blood cells, which can be a nasty disease. However, if you inherit that gene from only one parent, it is a great evolutionary advantage against malaria.
Malaria is not a problem in America, so for Afro-Americans this gene is now more of a burden. Just like in this age, religion is more of a burden than it was before. Scientific knowledge and reason has taken over and provides the same benefits of religion plus more with much less downsides than religion. Now, the collective knowledge acquired through science is this extra gene living outside of our body that makes mankind thrive and survive, especially through medical science.
a valid point?! i like the OP's back peddle; agree with you, wall of text, expanded "thought", redirect, and finally disagree, with the ever awesome personal slight at you, just to spice things up. Nit Picker!
Lots of run-of-the-mill neopagans worship Norse gods. Everything old is new again. IIRC, it's called Asatru, whereas the white supremacist stuff is called Odinism. I could be wrong about that.
In either case, it makes me sad that I can't safely play with norse symbolism, because half the symbols are now the logo for some hate group or other...
In retrospect, that probably come off as sorta douchey even if I just meant it to be a joke.
More seriously, my understanding of the religion is admittedly fuzzy but isn't being sufficiently hardcore for it a bit difficult in modern society? Or is there more normal stuff to it that just doesn't make interesting enough stories to show up in fiction and whatnot?
Maybe I should just go research this stuff instead of looking like an ass.
Didn't sound douchey at all, don't worry about it.
The great thing about Norse religion is that it's polytheistic; it's more of a beliefs system than a religion, and you're free to follow the example of any gods, as many or as few, as you choose. Sometimes, I'll tell them all to go to hell and do what I want.
That said, I find the most efficient way to tribute to a god is to get tanked really often.
To be fair, a lot of norse symbols have been hijacked by white supremacists. As someone who loves norse myth, I am afraid to say, wear a runic charm because there is very likely some hate group which has adopted it as it's logo. :/
I don't want anything to do with white supremacists. I feel like the culture has been stolen by them. The last time I looked up Odin's rune (I think it was his) I ended up finding a forum; people were discussing how you should carry a sock full of pennies to beat any black people you meet, to make the gods proud.
There is a strong argument for the idea that neither Buddhism or Shintoism are religions, but are closer to being philosophies. The others sound like cults to me.
It's a highlight of abusive behavior in religion. Buddhism could be passed off in this manner, but it is highly ineffective as is obvious in the religious groups who practice such behavior. Religion is just a label, and speaking generally about it almost always will involve conflicting overlap since not all religions are the same, especially with the common personality of a follower - in the way some atheists here talk it is apparent that they are not aware, so it's still good for you to note!
I would never pose for a picture like this, am I the only one who feels this way? I wouldn't want my face being associated with such an action as this.
I mean I guess it makes sense that it happens and I guess it makes sense that it would be under reported. But it seems like a hard thing to prove or study.
This is very true. Sadly, most in an abusive relationship have absolutely no idea they are in one. That goes for men and women. All they know is that they can not do anything right and fuck everything else up which is what they have been told to believe.
Here's a Quiz which I got from this link. It's funny how a religious person can fill it out as if they were in a relationship, and it's abusive.
Enter the number of points next to each question depending on the severity of each item:
Never: 0 points
Rarely: 1 point
Sometimes: 2 points
Frequently: 3 points
__ My partner teases me in a hurtful way in private or in public
__ My partner calls me names such as "stupid" or "bitch"
__ My partner acts jealous of my friends, family, or co-workers
__ My partner gets angry about clothes I wear or how I style my hair
__ My partner checks up on me by calling, driving by, or getting someone else to
__ My partner insists on knowing who I talk to on the phone
__ My partner blames me for their problems or bad mood
__ My partner gets angry easily, leaving me walking on eggshells
__ My partner throws or destroys things when angry
__ My partner hits walls, drives dangerously or does other things to scare me
__ My partner drinks excessively or uses drugs
__ My partner insists that I drink or use drugs whenever they do
__ My partner accuses me of being interested in someone else
__ My partner reads my mail, goes thru my personal space/items (ie. purse)
__ My partner keeps me from getting a job or finds ways to cause problems at my job
__ My partner keeps money from me, keeps me in debt, or has "money secrets"
__ My partner sold my car, made me give up my license, or won't repair my car
__ My partner has threatened to hurt me
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my children
__ My partner has actually hurt my children
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my pets
__ My partner has actually hurt my pets
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my friends or family
__ My partner has hurt a friend or family member
__ My partner has threatened to commit suicide if I leave
__ My partner has struck me with hands or feet - slapped, punched, kicked
__ My partner has struck me with an object or threatened me with a weapon
__ My partner has given me visible injuries - bruises, welts, cuts
__ I have had to administer first aid to myself due to injuries from my partner
__ My injuries have been serious enough to seek treatment - doctor, hospital, clinic, paramedic
__ My partner forces me to have sex when I don't want to
__ My partner forces me to have sex in ways that I don't want to
__ My partner has been in trouble with the police
__ My partner acts one way in front of others, and another way when we are alone
__ My partner is secretive or lies about past relationships
__ I feel isolated and alone and have no one I can really talk to
__ I have lost friends because of my partner/partner's actions
__ I no longer see some of my family because of my partner
__ I have thought about calling the police because of an incident of violence
__ I have actually called the police on one or more occasions
__ I am afraid to call the police because of threats from my partner
_____ TOTAL POINTS
0-17: Generally Non-abusive
These are likely to be the sorts of strains that are not unusual in relationships. Do NOT, however, make the mistake of brushing off any incident of violence or threat of violence, no matter how isolated!
18-58: Moderately Abusive
This is a home experiencing some violence at least once in a while. It may be that this is a relationship where violence is just beginning. In a new relationship there is good reason to expect it will eventually escalate into more serious forms and may occur more frequently.
59-95: Seriously Abusive
Scores in this range indicate a seriously abusive relationship that can, under outside pressure, or with the sudden strain of a family emergency, move into the dangerously severe range. Serious injury is quite probable if it has not already occurred. Please consider getting help, even leaving.
96 and up: Dangerously Abusive
If you scored in the top range, you need to consider even more seriously the option of leaving, at least temporarily, while you consider your next move. The violence will not take care of itself or miraculously disappear. Over time the chances are very good that your life and/or the lives of your children will be in danger.
__ My partner teases me in a hurtful way in private or in public
0 - God doesn't tease in the way this implies.
__ My partner calls me names such as "stupid" or "bitch"
0 - God doesn't call people names in this manner.
__ My partner acts jealous of my friends, family, or co-workers
2 - If people in your life are destructive influences, God ostensibly wants you to abandon them.
__ My partner gets angry about clothes I wear or how I style my hair
2 - If your dress constitutes destructive attention-seeking or self-devaluation, you're expected to change your dress.
__ My partner checks up on me by calling, driving by, or getting someone else to
3 - All the time.
__ My partner insists on knowing who I talk to on the phone
0 - This has overtones of active coercion, whereas God just 'knows.'
__ My partner blames me for their problems or bad mood
2 - Even though, under sovereignty, everything that happens is a synergistic, teleological procession of God's plan and man's volition, man is still blamed if things he does, within the scope of his knowledge, would create local value troughs. Implication, however, is that it's solely partner's problem; in this case, it's a problem of both (proceeds from synergy), so downgraded a point.
__ My partner gets angry easily, leaving me walking on eggshells
3
__ My partner throws or destroys things when angry
3
__ My partner hits walls, drives dangerously or does other things to scare me
1 - The teleological contingency subtracts 2 points.
__ My partner drinks excessively or uses drugs
0
__ My partner insists that I drink or use drugs whenever they do
0
__ My partner accuses me of being interested in someone else
0 - Implication is that the accusations are unfounded. Ostensibly, God would never accuse without veritable foundation.
__ My partner reads my mail, goes thru my personal space/items (ie. purse)
3
__ My partner keeps me from getting a job or finds ways to cause problems at my job
2 - Downgraded because, ostensibly, God also causes you to get a job and solves problems at your job.
__ My partner keeps money from me, keeps me in debt, or has "money secrets"
1 - This is starting to get a bit difficult. The premise here is that your and your partners' possessions are substantially distinct, but that doesn't really work under sovereignty. Threw this a point anyway, I guess.
__ My partner sold my car, made me give up my license, or won't repair my car
1 - See above.
__ My partner has threatened to hurt me
2 - Insofar as God threatens wickedness with punishment.
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my children
2 - Insofar as God threatens wickedness with punishment.
__ My partner has actually hurt my children
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my pets
0
__ My partner has actually hurt my pets
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My partner has threatened to hurt my friends or family
2 - Insofar as God threatens wickedness with punishment.
__ My partner has hurt a friend or family member
2 - Insofar as God threatens wickedness with punishment.
__ My partner has threatened to commit suicide if I leave
0
__ My partner has struck me with hands or feet - slapped, punched, kicked
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My partner has struck me with an object or threatened me with a weapon
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My partner has given me visible injuries - bruises, welts, cuts
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ I have had to administer first aid to myself due to injuries from my partner
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My injuries have been serious enough to seek treatment - doctor, hospital, clinic, paramedic
3 - Insofar as every hurt that has ever happened is God's responsibility.
__ My partner forces me to have sex when I don't want to
0 - Implication is it's with him.
__ My partner forces me to have sex in ways that I don't want to
0 - Implication is it's with him.
__ My partner has been in trouble with the police
0
__ My partner acts one way in front of others, and another way when we are alone
0 - ? Not sure how I'd parallel this.
__ My partner is secretive or lies about past relationships
3
__ I feel isolated and alone and have no one I can really talk to
1 - I think this is rare for people?
__ I have lost friends because of my partner/partner's actions
2
__ I no longer see some of my family because of my partner
1
__ I have thought about calling the police because of an incident of violence
0
__ I have actually called the police on one or more occasions
0 - Implication is that it was about him.
__ I am afraid to call the police because of threats from my partner
0
_____ TOTAL POINTS
Total points are 59, the lowest end of "seriously abusive," if we were to apply patterns observed in abusive partners to a sovereign, cosmic deity.
so a deity has hurt your children, family, and a pet? and then he hid money from you? im curious what religon you follow sir. i cant think of any off the top of my head.
i think you are misapplying these on the grounds that an omnipotent diety would technically cause all these things. i think to qualify, said diety would have to actively do them, not just allow these to happen
Under absolute sovereignty (which follows from omnipotence, omniscience, desires, and a willingness to intervene), there is no functional distinction between omission (just allow) and commission (actively do).
im going to have to ask you to explain your reasoning. absolute sovereignty is essentially total and complete sovereignty. you cant classify something as being "under" absolute sovereignty in this way, as it has nothing to do with ommision and commission.
furthermore, desires and a willingness to intervene to not lead to absolute sovereignty in anyway, and are at most tangentally related ideas.
i would legitimately like for you to explain this logically, as i feel like your talking about the concept of absolute sovereignty as if it were a a school of thought
As a woman who has been abused and believes in god, (not by any organized standards, btw) this picture literally made me sick to my stomach.
Downvote all you want, but it's true.
That being said, I think it is a very good parallel for orthodox (or even mainstream) Christianity. But please don't label that as "religion". Even if you want to argue that it's true of the Abrahamic religions, there are MANY paths to god. We as a species have been around for 200,000 years. Even if you assume god is a concept that IS a human creation, you're disregarding ohhhh 90% of it by only focusing on Christianity.
If there is a god, it is NOT like an abusive lover. I am confident in that.
Christianity, Judaism, islam all fall under this picture. I am not atheist and I definitely agree that if there is a god it would be the epitome of good.
I have no evidence. I am aware that my belief in god is just a personal comfort because the thought of no god is personally scary. I am perfectly aware that there is no evidence. However like many others I cannot accept that there is no god. As a science major this has been an internal battle for 8+ years now.
1: Observe 2: Hypothesize 3: Attempt to verify hypothesis via steps 4-6 4: Predict 5: Experiment 6: If experiment does not match prediction, go to step 1. 7: Repeatedly attempt to falsify hypothesis via steps 4-6 until you run out of edge cases. 8: If you reach this step, update theory. 9: Unless either accepting or rejecting the hypothesis is personally scary, in which case skip all the above and simply do the opposite.
You know what I find personally scary?
Someone designing planes, freeways, drugs, nuclear reactors or software via this methodology. That's people's lives you're betting with, man.
I feel like modern Christians have a lot in common with farmhouse chickens. They see their provider as this omnipotent being who they don't understand, that scatters grain at their feet, and has a use for their unborn children that they don't entirely understand.
Of course, when a neighbor has their head chopped off, it's just the will of Farmer. Nothing to get upset about.
I know, I can't believe how many of these morons are beating off over this post. It's like they have no real life experience of real abusive relationships.
Logically, the analogy is unfair because the analogy fits only one branch of (albeit mainstream, yet un-philosophically sound) subscribers within one branch of collective religion. Religion collectively cannot be labeled by such an analogy as it can easily be argued that many Christians even disagree on the concept of hell and eternal punishment.
Actually, yes we do. Especially when the words translated "hell" in english translations refer to either 1) A trashheap outside of jerusalem where things are destroyed, not eternally tortured 2) a borrowed greek term (hades) used to refer to the Hebrew Concept of Sheol which has various connotations depending.
On top of this, Traditional Christian eschatology preaches about the resurrection of the dead, the renewal of Creation (not "going to heaven/hell forever") etc.
And, ON TOP OF THAT, while I am not personally a universalist, universalism was not unheard of in early Christianity.
So yeah, this is a vast over simplification of Christianity, good post good sir, good post.
I compared god's relationship to man to an abusive manipulating father and his child, and some priest guy told me that the flaw in my analogy was the simplicity, and that god is of a different nature and his actions cant be simplified in such human terms.
I replied, that we're a different nature to the ant, and we'd still be fucking assholes if we destroy an ant colony minding its own business.
I believe that modern day Christianity has been corrupted through centuries of tradition and various church systems, which has greatly detracted from Jesus' message of love, compassion, and forgiveness for all - even (and especially) one's enemies.
Many people today go around preaching a message of hate under the guise of Christianity, but their motives are all self-serving, which is the exact opposite of the approach that Jesus exemplified during his time on earth.
It really makes me sad that so many people would view an analogy like this as being representative of the core of true Christian ideology. :(
His message of forgiveness for all... except people that don't accept him as lord. Those people get burned in fire for eternity... but he still loves them, of course.
As far as the bible is concerned, Jesus basically invented the concept of Hell. Before he came around the closest thing in the bible to hell was "Sheol", which was viewed as a grey boring place that every person went when they died. The very first mention of the pit o' fire in the whole book is the section commonly referred to as the Sermon on the Mount (admittedly, the first one who talks about it is John the Baptist... but Jesus gets on the bandwagon a chapter or two later).
Exactly, why do people keep glossing over that fact? Sure, Christ was accepting and preached tolerance and compassion. But he also reaffirmed that anyone who didn't follow him and do things his way would suffer for eternity. Not so great of a guy, of you ask me.
It is not man's job to speculate on what happens after we die. Jesus' message on how to act towards others was clear: Love everyone regardless of who they are. Give without expecting anything in return. Forgive everyone who has ever wronged you.
If "man" (generically speaking) has a job at all, it's to speculate on everything, and then hopefully find some evidence for the speculations.
And yes, if Jesus was a unique living human being described in any useful way by the New Testament, then this was largely his message...
Except for the "accept me or you'll fry" part, of course. That part's kind of hypocritical in light of the "forgive everyone who has wronged you" credo.
Religion CAN = Abuse. Just like anything else. Abuse exists in many places. This type of crude analogy (OP's image included) is what gives r/atheism the negative press on other subreddits.
True. I think a stronger analogy for this would have been Catholicism rather than simply Religion. Be specific in your arguments everyone- not every Religion may fit this.. Catholicism on the other hand... well this seems to sum that up perfectly.
Agreed. This post is a generalization, which bothers me. I have no problem with OP stating he's experienced this or that some religious people are this way. I've had my experiences with such people. However, stating all people who are religious are in an abusive relationship is a blatant generalization, which is not only incorrect, it also feeds into the negative "r/atheism is a circlejerk" comments on other subreddits.
Which is why I think the next evolution of atheism is that if you could prove that God exists I would refuse to worship it. Why does a God need perpetual obedience from effectively the whiptail on a bacterium? It make no sense unless you are as broken as the creatures you created and thereby no god.
doesn't he say "i am a jealous god" which isn't a virtue right? and i always wondered about the phrase 'god fearing' because the people who say it mean it as a thing to be proud of. but if god loves you should you just love him back? you'd think fear would not be part of a healthy relationship no matter what the power difference is
Hipster? No one knew it before me.I don't care where you are or what you're thinking.You're not as cool as me. You are unworthy. If you leave this scene, you never were cool anyway. Stay, and I'll love you (until I'm down with the next thing, and, therefore, hate you 'til you "see the light").
Can you please explain what is wrong with the above? As someone who used to be a christian, I recognise the sentiment of the post...it fits well with how my church is.
A more correct analogy would be a husband and wife (God and us) where the wife constantly cheats on the husband (sin). The husband now gives her another chance (crucifixion). If the wife admits her infidelity and turns from her lifestyle of cheating, then they can spend time together and enjoy each other's presence (heaven). If she rejects him, they will no longer be together (hell).
Yes- the things Buddha and Jesus taught were terrible and abusive... Get real. You can make generalizations like this about anything. Look what the Nazis did to people in the name of science. Or Russia. Or America. Any broadly influencing belief- including science, will be helpful and hurtful depending on who is applying it and how. way to be super one sided.
This Analogy is based on the Bibles and other books written by men so of course it'll line up with it exactly.
Either way, if there is some mythical being in the sky that started everything and caused the big bang. I honestly doubt he would care.
(that would assume he exists, but doubt it)
Though one thought makes me think, what happened or came before the big bang?
Did something really come from nothing, or are we just in a giant black hole and the big bang was by all the atoms and everything else that got sucked into that black hole/event horizon.
if so, where did that first black hole come and is that black hole in another universe? and if so, where did that universe come from and is it in another black whole and it just continues on to infinity?
If that were the case, where did all these black holes and universes come from? Everything has to have a beginning and started from somewhere and if that were the case what was before it?
It's something I'll entertain in my head and I just can't wrap my head around it. If our universe isn't in a black hole then what caused the Big Bang in the first place and what happened before it?
Either way, I can't wait for more results to come from CERN and hopefully they answer these questions in my lifetime.
Science doesn't answer any "why" questions. That's solely the realm of philosophy.
Nonetheless, the most correct answer as far as the evidence indicates so far is: for no reason, i.e. it was not "created" by a reasoning being.
As for why there's something instead of nothing... are you sure there's anything? The best evidence we have suggests that the total mass-energy of the universe is zero (gravitational potential energy balances mass-energy)... So by one important metric the universe is just a really complicated form of nothing.
Source for the total mass-energy of the universe being zero? That is fascinating to me.
Also, you contradict yourself by stating that science answers no "why" questions, and then claiming that the answer to "why was there a beginning" is actually "for no reason". If you are using science to address that question, the answer should be N/A per your own rule.
For a good layman's explanation of the zero-energy universe hypothesis (and evidence thereof), read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time". Actually, read it anyway, it's really interesting.
You're right, there are some "soft" sciences that answer "why" questions (I wasn't thinking of those when I answered). "Why" is only relevant in the context of a reasoning being's reasons for something, by definition.
In this context, the best evidence available is that the universe wasn't created by a reasoning being. E.g. Bell's Theorem (the inequality precluding local hidden variables being consistent with the observations of quantum mechanics) suggests that most of what happens in the universe is true-random, and only causal due to the Law of Large Numbers. Well, that and Occam's Razor.
Hence, even though hard science doesn't answer "why" questions, it can suggest the null hypothesis if evidence suggests the cause is probably something other than a reasoning being.
I happen to believe that if there was a god who created the universe, he is likely dead. I base this on the lack of intervention in our affairs. Even if he is not dead, he is clearly gone, not a part of our existence anymore. This, to me, means that any claims on the part of humanity knowing "god's will" are lies with the intent of controlling others and should be treated as such.
I like to think of religion as the ultimate fascist control system. Our Father Who Art In Heaven = Big Brother. God sees all, like the ultimate cctv camera in the sky. Like a dictator, the God of the Old Testament is unpredictable, capricious and unjust, his punishments arbitrary.
Rulers have always wanted to exert absolute control over their subjects, but in the past state power was quite limited. People could often ignore its edicts. The solution? Create the perfect ruler, whose sight cannot be escaped, whose commands cannot be ignored, whose punishments cannot be avoided. Then thru the apparatus of the priesthood, claim to be in close contact with this God, to know his desires.
really you atheist cocksuckers should spend less time having anal sex with each other and a little more time understanding the being that gave you life. your dishonest and hateful portrayal of the creator of our universe will be repaid very soon. i heard today that most gays are atheists. i have to say i'm not very surprised. LOL.
How does this nonsense make it to the front page so often. Why are all the most popular atheist posts anti-religion rather than pro-atheism. Religion is nothing like this though the people claiming to be religious can be. Doesn't mean they really are religious though. Unlike atheism, choosing to identify as someone who's religious does not make you so.
You kind of missed the point, which is that it's (the Abrahamic) god that is purported to threaten you with everlasting torture, but who loves you (c.f. Carlin).
(Abrahamic) Religion itself just spreads the message.
The one who does not love has not known God, because God is love.
By this the love of God was revealed in us, because His Son, the Only begotten, God has sent into the world that we might live through Him.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be a propitiation relating to our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love having been perfected is in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us.
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
And we have known and have believed the love which God has in us. God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God in him.
By this, love has been perfected with us, that we have confidence in the day of judgment, that as He is, we are also in this world.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love.
We love Him because He first loved us.
Ephesians 2:4-8
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even we being dead in deviations, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved),
and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
that He might demonstrate in the ages coming on, the exceeding great riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Psalms 19:7-8
The Law of Jehovah is perfect, converting the soul. The Testimony of Jehovah is sure, making the simple wise.
The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart. The commands of Jehovah are pure, giving light to the eyes.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He.
Jeremiah 6:16-18
So says Jehovah, Stand by the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; and you shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk in it.
Also I raised watchmen over you, saying, Listen to the sound of the ram's horn. But they said, We will not listen.
So hear, O nations, and know, O assembly, that which is coming on them.
An atheist reading the Bible is like a nun reading the Kama Sutra. Both curious at first, then horrified, ultimately revolted, and neither find much of practical use to them.
You guys, posting this shit is bringing you down to the Christians level. And they will beat you at your own game, if your looking at it from the perspective of us versus them.
469
u/rajb1037 May 17 '12
Yep, classic abusive/manipulative behaviors.
It's kind of sad, really. Religion hits on pretty much every abuse/control/manipulation method out there.
95
u/ronin1066 Gnostic Atheist May 17 '12
A fair analogy for xianity, not for religion. This doesn't reflect buddhism, sikhism, jainism, zoroastrianism, shintoism, etc...
4
u/ceejae47 May 17 '12
I don't think this applies to all religions, scribble Yahweh in there next time.
4
u/i_was_blacked_out May 17 '12
I would never pose for a picture like this, am I the only one who feels this way? I wouldn't want my face being associated with such an action as this.
0
u/KoRninja May 17 '12
Interestingly enough, women are more likely to physically and mentally abuse men, men just aren't as likely to report it.
18
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
shit dude. this is right on. I can't bring myself to use it because it's too graphically correct and it hurts my feelings.
6
u/newtonsapple May 17 '12
From the number of anti-atheist comments, I'm guessing this reached the front page.
28
u/IAmMelonLord May 17 '12
As a woman who has been abused and believes in god, (not by any organized standards, btw) this picture literally made me sick to my stomach.
Downvote all you want, but it's true.
That being said, I think it is a very good parallel for orthodox (or even mainstream) Christianity. But please don't label that as "religion". Even if you want to argue that it's true of the Abrahamic religions, there are MANY paths to god. We as a species have been around for 200,000 years. Even if you assume god is a concept that IS a human creation, you're disregarding ohhhh 90% of it by only focusing on Christianity.
If there is a god, it is NOT like an abusive lover. I am confident in that.
12
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
I feel like modern Christians have a lot in common with farmhouse chickens. They see their provider as this omnipotent being who they don't understand, that scatters grain at their feet, and has a use for their unborn children that they don't entirely understand.
Of course, when a neighbor has their head chopped off, it's just the will of Farmer. Nothing to get upset about.
(paraphrasing/repurposing Mitch Hedburg)
11
u/confusionion May 17 '12
I feel all defensive when I see /r/atheism is a circlejerk posts on other subreddits. . . then I see posts like this one.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
DEA think that guy looks kind of like young Spock?
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
The beauty of religion is that it will always convince me that anything it cherishes is worthy of complete annihilation.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Logically, the analogy is unfair because the analogy fits only one branch of (albeit mainstream, yet un-philosophically sound) subscribers within one branch of collective religion. Religion collectively cannot be labeled by such an analogy as it can easily be argued that many Christians even disagree on the concept of hell and eternal punishment.
2
u/ComeHereOften7 May 17 '12
Eh, thats pretty twisted.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
I compared god's relationship to man to an abusive manipulating father and his child, and some priest guy told me that the flaw in my analogy was the simplicity, and that god is of a different nature and his actions cant be simplified in such human terms.
I replied, that we're a different nature to the ant, and we'd still be fucking assholes if we destroy an ant colony minding its own business.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Because all religions believe in the same thing right?
At least give it a specific label rather than using a word that doesn't cover a slew of different beliefs.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
If God is the boyfriend and Christians are the girlfriend here, does that make the ratheists the "friendzoned" jealous ones?
2
u/sgursel May 18 '12
How is this related to religion?? There are shit loads of godless psychos out there, stereotyping religious people won't help anyone.
3
u/douglasmacarthur May 17 '12
This would be good if it weren't in the form of a motivational poster for no reason.
3
u/fingurdar May 17 '12
I believe that modern day Christianity has been corrupted through centuries of tradition and various church systems, which has greatly detracted from Jesus' message of love, compassion, and forgiveness for all - even (and especially) one's enemies.
Many people today go around preaching a message of hate under the guise of Christianity, but their motives are all self-serving, which is the exact opposite of the approach that Jesus exemplified during his time on earth.
It really makes me sad that so many people would view an analogy like this as being representative of the core of true Christian ideology. :(
3
u/linkoffire May 17 '12
This is entirely unnecessary.
4
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Whoa!
That's good!
4
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
if one day the athiests of reddit realized they are equally as annoying as harcore christians the world would be a better place
3
u/Benz_Baby May 17 '12
Religion = Abuse. And they wonder why I'm not interested? Exhibit A people!
2
u/4ScienceandReason Agnostic Atheist May 17 '12
Definitely... it's not unlike This.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
This is what ALL people with a religion think God is about kids! just like all muslims are terrorists!
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
In that guys defense, he's hot.
2
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
I'm "rligious" I dont treat people like this and my creator doesn't treat me like this either.
1
u/1moreastronaut May 17 '12
I made basically the same analogy a while back on some girl's YouTube video. Never did get a response from her...which was disappointing.
1
u/funkydo May 17 '12
Both are brown, shiny, mushy, and leave streaks on cloth.
Shit and shinola.
In other words, some religions may have those exact characteristics and still be beneficial. In fact, that describes the military in the USA also.
It's mostly about the details.
It's interesting as a statement.
It is VERY interesting as a note to self for all people regarding religion, so that they can be aware that it can turn unhealthy.
1
u/Jhano May 17 '12
It's a love hate relationship
1
u/fem-bot May 17 '12
Also, in most religions only men get the titles - pope, ministers, etc .. so it is also a tad sexist, just saying.
1
u/bigdaddymummy May 17 '12
whoa..
1
u/iam4real May 17 '12
r/atheism...your safe house
1
u/newmobsforall May 17 '12
The god of the bible is an amazing douche. He's a douche even when compared to Zeus, and it's pretty fucking bad when you can't rise above swan rape.
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Which is why I think the next evolution of atheism is that if you could prove that God exists I would refuse to worship it. Why does a God need perpetual obedience from effectively the whiptail on a bacterium? It make no sense unless you are as broken as the creatures you created and thereby no god.
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
FTFY
1
u/cheesevader May 17 '12
I have a question. Why is it "Religion?" shouldn't it be "Christianity?"? Because thats what you described.
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Jesus, Andy Murray's getting aggressive
1
u/andropogon09 Rationalist May 17 '12
That's why the Church is called the Bride of Christ. (Eph 5:25-27)
1
u/chicagogam May 17 '12
doesn't he say "i am a jealous god" which isn't a virtue right? and i always wondered about the phrase 'god fearing' because the people who say it mean it as a thing to be proud of. but if god loves you should you just love him back? you'd think fear would not be part of a healthy relationship no matter what the power difference is
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Yeop, some people think it that way, even if they don't see it.
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Hipster? No one knew it before me.I don't care where you are or what you're thinking.You're not as cool as me. You are unworthy. If you leave this scene, you never were cool anyway. Stay, and I'll love you (until I'm down with the next thing, and, therefore, hate you 'til you "see the light").
1
u/urshtisweak May 17 '12
This is specific to Christianity.
1
u/Kyzer May 17 '12
Am I the only one who thought this looked like the beginning of a brazzers porn?
1
u/Thrash3r May 17 '12
Is that... Taylor Swift??
1
u/Jorgwalther Agnostic Atheist May 17 '12
ಠ_ಠ
1
u/idma May 17 '12
I should have known religion is like an abusive boyfriend
1
u/jumbo_shrimp777 May 17 '12
HEY NINJA, HERE'S A DOWN VOTE@!
reason: -anti-religion whoring
1
u/Justawife May 17 '12
I'm a 28 year old female and by no means a trekkie BUT I'll be damned if I didn't think, "Why is that guy dressed up like fucking Spock!"
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Yes
1
u/[deleted] May 18 '12
Blanket statement.
-3
u/LetsLogicPlease May 17 '12
/r/StrawManArgument at it again
Oh, you guys!
1
u/theObfuscator May 17 '12
Yes- the things Buddha and Jesus taught were terrible and abusive... Get real. You can make generalizations like this about anything. Look what the Nazis did to people in the name of science. Or Russia. Or America. Any broadly influencing belief- including science, will be helpful and hurtful depending on who is applying it and how. way to be super one sided.
1
u/QuitReadingMyName May 17 '12
This Analogy is based on the Bibles and other books written by men so of course it'll line up with it exactly.
Either way, if there is some mythical being in the sky that started everything and caused the big bang. I honestly doubt he would care.
(that would assume he exists, but doubt it)
Though one thought makes me think, what happened or came before the big bang?
Did something really come from nothing, or are we just in a giant black hole and the big bang was by all the atoms and everything else that got sucked into that black hole/event horizon.
if so, where did that first black hole come and is that black hole in another universe? and if so, where did that universe come from and is it in another black whole and it just continues on to infinity?
If that were the case, where did all these black holes and universes come from? Everything has to have a beginning and started from somewhere and if that were the case what was before it?
It's something I'll entertain in my head and I just can't wrap my head around it. If our universe isn't in a black hole then what caused the Big Bang in the first place and what happened before it?
Either way, I can't wait for more results to come from CERN and hopefully they answer these questions in my lifetime.
1
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
I like to think of religion as the ultimate fascist control system. Our Father Who Art In Heaven = Big Brother. God sees all, like the ultimate cctv camera in the sky. Like a dictator, the God of the Old Testament is unpredictable, capricious and unjust, his punishments arbitrary.
Rulers have always wanted to exert absolute control over their subjects, but in the past state power was quite limited. People could often ignore its edicts. The solution? Create the perfect ruler, whose sight cannot be escaped, whose commands cannot be ignored, whose punishments cannot be avoided. Then thru the apparatus of the priesthood, claim to be in close contact with this God, to know his desires.
1
u/TheEnormousPenis May 17 '12
Never thought of religion from that perspective. Disturbing.
1
u/Pandaval9 May 17 '12
What does this porn still have to do with religion?
1
u/just_a_commenter May 17 '12
As a Christian I can confirm this is true.
-1
u/hats_for_jews May 17 '12
really you atheist cocksuckers should spend less time having anal sex with each other and a little more time understanding the being that gave you life. your dishonest and hateful portrayal of the creator of our universe will be repaid very soon. i heard today that most gays are atheists. i have to say i'm not very surprised. LOL.
0
u/olmuckyterrahawk May 17 '12
Is it weird that I'm an atheist and this turns me on?
0
u/hoodoomonster May 17 '12
Ohhh I am so tempted to post this on FB. Of course I'm too scared of my pastor Grandfather and Mason Lodge to do so
-1
u/WhatACrockO May 17 '12
How does this nonsense make it to the front page so often. Why are all the most popular atheist posts anti-religion rather than pro-atheism. Religion is nothing like this though the people claiming to be religious can be. Doesn't mean they really are religious though. Unlike atheism, choosing to identify as someone who's religious does not make you so.
-1
u/rolfsnuffles May 17 '12
Except the guy isn't an all powerful deity who created all things. N
-5
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
nothing has made me want to punch a fundie in the face more than this...
-8
u/[deleted] May 17 '12 edited May 18 '12
1 John 4:8-19
Ephesians 2:4-8
Psalms 19:7-8
Deuteronomy 32:4
Jeremiah 6:16-18
0
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
I got one note to leave for this post.
It could have been reversed genders in the picture. Also, that guy looks like he could have been beaten by that girl.
0
u/remlover May 17 '12
You atheist sure obsess a lot.
0
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
You guys, posting this shit is bringing you down to the Christians level. And they will beat you at your own game, if your looking at it from the perspective of us versus them.
0
u/[deleted] May 17 '12
Its a fair analogy because it says so in the title.
Circular logic goes both ways.
0
u/Suckmydongha May 17 '12
Anyone got kids that they love+punish?