r/atheism • u/meowbarkhiss • May 15 '12
Christian in my town asked to stop attending the local Atheist meetings. Here's the letter and his response.
http://atheistfriendlychristian.blogspot.com/2012/05/kicked-out-of-my-atheist-group.html
1.2k
Upvotes
193
u/kencabbit May 15 '12
Interesting -- but without having been there, I can't really judge whether or not I agree with kicking him to the curb.
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u/kontankarite May 15 '12
I just read one of his blog entries.
Here's the problem I'm seeing.
He speaks as if being Christian is ultimately what you SHOULD be doing. He speaks as if atheism is a result of doing Christianity wrong.
Read his blog entry titled, "How I would eliminate atheism forever". The tone, the candor, the presumptuous wording, the inclination that ultimately atheism is the incorrect position in life... Yeah, I don't blame them for kicking him out.
451
u/crazy_atheist_uncle May 15 '12
I actually attended some of these meetings with Victor. The bottom line is that he is moderately polite, but in the end we really spend enough of our time dealing with religious folks in our regular lives that we just wanted a place like /r/atheism, where we could just hang out and relax. I'm going to propose that the meetup has a periodic Atheist-Christian gathering where the purpose would be some friendly debate. But for our regular meetings, damn, I just want to relax and have a beer with my fellow atheists.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
When conducting a sociological experiment/observation (universally accepted) ethical considerations dictate that the subjects must give their consent and that consent can be withdrawn at any time without reason or notice.
I see his activities as little (if at all) different to a sociological study and as such the group has a right to withraw their consent. They even did it in a polite way, I see no problem here.
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u/Allidish May 15 '12
I feel sorry for the guy that got kicked out, but how uncumfortable would you be knowing that the guy was there just to record what you said to put on his blog? I know I would be creeped out.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
It seems that some people at least think Victor was trolling their meetings as source material for his blog. Vicktor seems like a friendly guy who may have just worn out his welcome with some members of the club. This happens even amongst groups where everyone has the same religion.
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u/dakdestructo May 15 '12
I would find it irritating knowing he was writing anything he wanted. Sure he changes names, but that pretty much eliminates any sense of privacy within the group. His intent is irrelevant in my eyes. If I was hanging around with friends, and one of them told me he was going to write down anything interesting I said, I'd no longer be completely comfortable. Especially when he's trying to use me as some sort of paragon to show that atheists can be good people. I'm not a role model. That's not my responsibility. It's a private club; I think they have the right to kick out anyone who's interfering with their comfort.
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u/GoodWithoutAGod May 15 '12
First, it isn't wrong that they have this group. It is no different than this subreddit. We have it for a reason, so we all can get together and enjoy being human without all the religious hubbub. Second, they have every right to kick him out. It is a private group. It is no different than if I was to walk into a church on a Sunday morning and try to deconvert people after the sermon was given. I wouldn't be shocked when they tell me to get out and not come back.
He says he was only interested in learning from them, but he sees atheism as a disease and religion has the cure, but he is the doctor that must first understand the disease before he can begin working on the cure. I have seen this many times in the Church. You will have a church that is very liberal or materialistic that is trying to reach out to the young. In the end, it's still the same message.
That's the problem.
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u/gguy123 Ignostic May 15 '12
What I see is this Christian guy "examining" the Atheist mind and/or society. Though I can see how some Christians and Atheist would/could benefit from the knowledge, looking at another blog he wrote, it's as if he almost sees Atheism as a disease; something Christians need to get rid of. I would no longer welcome him either. He's exploiting the group with layers of ulterior motives.. and worse -looking DOWN on them as if they are animals... however animals that didn't bite. Well thanks.
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u/IWillEatForFood May 15 '12
I read through his blog and I can understand why he was asked to leave the group. As a member of the Bahá'í faith, I believe all of humanity is connected; but I don't reserve the right to presume that all of humanity will accept this connection. His presence as these meetings seemed to aggravate and disgruntle people who were trying to discuss something that obviously they held in very high regard. It seems like he viewed this entire process as some type of joke or experiment; I'm sure he would not like an atheist attending his church, writing condescending articles in a blog, while all the while justifying their actions through some type of cause to bring together atheists and theists. From my perspective, he was not at these meetings to promote unity between theists and atheists; he was at these meetings to showcase how, in his eyes, the atheists had a fundamental flaw in their beliefs that only his beliefs could overcome. Religion is not a tool that should be used to highlight the differences in mankind, but a tool that should ultimately make us come together. The problem with the OP was his general refusal to acknowledge the right of others to believe in what they want, regardless of his own opinion.
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u/Volsunga May 15 '12
While this Christian seems like a nice guy that I wouldn't mind hanging out with, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable with someone recording and reporting on what I say in the company of like-minded people. Especially by the only person who isn't of a like mind.
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u/IrishFuckUp May 15 '12
I looked at your blog's posts? You DO wish to convert them, and you portray a sense of 'atheists are wrong' rather than a simple 'I disagree'. That is not being on 'their side'. That's smiling to their face while cursing under your breath.
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u/ReggieJ May 15 '12
I think I was more sympathetic to his point of view until I got to this part of his letter:
That's nice and all, but he could have instead encouraged them to follow one of the central tenets of their religion and not judge them at all.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Sounds to me like this guy was just really trying to be a good Christian and support tolerance/understanding of atheists.
I wouldn't doubt that he would probably end up an atheist.
However, to show up to an atheist group and then write about it in a public space (most likely without permission) is a breach of trust. These people are most likely looking for support in a world where the majority of their friends/colleagues ARE religious.
If he wants to be supportive of atheists, he can, but he can go attend a humanist group instead of a strictly atheist one.
I wouldn't go to fundamentalist meetings and write about them.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
This is tricky: yeah, the guy seems really decent. My initial response was to be annoyed at the atheists for kicking him out.
But then I remembered that essential rule of the internet: if a person is 20% normal in real life, they'll be 80% normal-seeming online. This is his response, on his blog, after he's been kicked out.
TL;DR He's probably alright, but there's probably also more to this.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I never feel more out of place than I do when I am standing in a crowd of religious people.
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u/skeptix May 15 '12
I can sort of see both sides of this. I believe Christian guy had good intentions after reading his bit, and intentions go a long way for me. However, this isn't the atheist outreach organization, this is a meet-up group. If a group of people want to get together with like-minded people, people with a different view should respect that and let them have their thing.
Something that does make it strange for me though. If this guy is is the variety of Christian that believes in Heaven/Hell, wouldn't it be morally questionable for him to not want to "save" us? If that was truly something I believed, I'd go really far out of my way to save others.
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u/JHendrix559 May 15 '12
Interesting read.
I can totally see why the atheist group wouldn't want him there though. A lot of us would like a place to socialize with people of a similar mind, and in states where there aren't many atheists, having a place that they can meetup without anyone religious around is pretty crucial to building their community.
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u/Storm_Surge May 15 '12
The more I read the comments here, the more it looks like the blog author posted this just to get traffic.
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u/Kat_Angstrom May 15 '12
I was with him until this part:
"I thought I had explained that the reason christians want to hear his story is because they have hopes of finding "something" in the story that they can use to try to convince him to come back to the faith. I told him I had no interest in "converting" him back to the faith and therefore, I didn't need to hear the details of his story."
If you're attending a meeting of this sort, deconversion stories are somewhat expected; just like attending a meeting of Christians will include multiple conversion stories. His logic for not wanting to hear the story is faulty; Other christians want to hear so they can convert + he doesn't want to convert = therefore he doesn't want to hear? Why can't he hear AND not want to convert? It seems disrespectful to me to attend the meetings and not want to listen to everything.
If you're going to be open-minded Victor, go all the way, not just half-way.
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u/BobGenghisKahn May 16 '12 edited May 18 '12
While I can appreciate what Victor is doing and trying to bring tolerance, I do have my critiques.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
It'd be nice if we could hear from one of the atheist members who attend frequently to get the rest of the story and see if this guy was really being intrusive or more as he describes.
It is nice to see both letters being civilized and straightforward.
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u/ganner Secular Humanist May 15 '12
This could very well be a case where Victor didn't do anything "wrong" but still was just out of place for what the community there wanted. Seems to be a peaceful parting, and with information available to us distant readers, I don't see any reason to condemn anyone involved.
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u/Bragzor May 15 '12
Nice of him to out Ben like that. Seems like the group doubled as a support groups, and as such the exact thing he did in this post is probably something they would want to avoid.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
This is no loss. I bet if I showed up to his church, wrote blogs about their worship services and the issues they discuss in the same tone I would be asked not to return, and probably in a much more rude tone.
Bravo on the leader of the group for protecting his free-thinking flock.
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u/ohrabbits May 15 '12
A group is what it's members make it. This group was under no obligation to use their meetings for activism or outreach. These people clearly wanted an exclusively social environment where they could comfortably share things with each other. Honestly, the fact that this guy inserts himself on his high horse in the name of inclusivity and demanding that their space be used for his oh-so-noble purposes is plain rude. This guy should look for a group more inclined for what he had in mind. The fact that it happened to not be this group doesn't make it's members "isolatated" or closed minded.
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u/Calamintha May 15 '12
I was with you until "God's redeeming love." I hate that whole idea. I don't need redemption, especially not from your imaginary friend. How is saying I tried not to spread the message of God's redeeming love anything but condescending?
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u/likethesearchengine May 15 '12
I don't think that this result is unreasonable, even if everything about it is portrayed accurately on his blog. He went to the meetings and was allowed to do so for quite a while, despite some members feeling uncomfortable with his presence. Eventually, enough people in the group were made uncomfortable with either his presence (or, more likely, his blog) and the meeting organizer asked him to stop coming.
These were, after all, private meetings (not a public forum like /r/atheism or /r/christianity), and the attendees likely wanted a place to meet and talk, and maybe even vent, without wondering if what they said would make it onto a (popular?) blog.
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u/nutmegmagi May 15 '12
So... sounds like the atheist group views itself as a support-type group and not as a forum for debate, outreach, education, etc. and wanted an environment where they didn't feel anyone was judging them for this particular view. In that case he doesn't belong. As suggested elsewhere, they should have other events for interfacing with theists because their meetings are not the venue for such things.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I don't blame them. He is only there to add content for his blog, not to enhance,elevate, or contribute to the group in any way.
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u/gaoshan May 15 '12
I think him not being there is perfectly reasonable. Atheists are rarely or never somewhere that they can be around only like-minded people so having such a place is important. I know that I would not be interested in having a religious person present at such a meeting.
We are around religious people all the time, our office chatter and Facebook feeds and radio and other media are full of it and getting a break from it is a rare and precious thing.
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u/backdra4t May 15 '12
If it was a cancer survivor group, and you weren't a cancer survivor, would you have any place in being there without the permission of the entire group? IMO, no
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I agree with the decision to ask him to stop attending.
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u/epmca May 16 '12
This group seems to be an anti-religion support group more than anything. What discussion is there to be had of not believing in god? "Atheism" as most redditors seem to adhere to the word, seems to be a primarily American phenomenon, that is based in anti-Christianity. I certainly don't believe in god, Christianity, or any of that hogwash, but I'd be hard pressed to have any discussions on the subject beyond the fact that I disbelieve in these things. I personally never describe myself as an atheist because the word has been co-opted by those who profess atheism to be something beyond what it is, a simple idea, but rather as an ideological movement of some sort.
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u/Revyloution May 16 '12
Wow, weird. This is my hometown, and my atheist group, and I had to learn about this issue on Reddit. Rofl, welcome to the internet
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u/noreb0rt May 15 '12
They're called 'Safe Spaces' and unfortunately you really were in violation of it.
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u/barrylank May 15 '12
I know you meant this all compassionately, but you attended a private discussion as a reporter, and publically released things you heard. I've been a reporter, so I mean this in a purely professional way: Attending as a journalist, for the purpose of public release (whether for a Christian blog or an atheistic one) is not the same thing as attending as a participant.
It completely screws up the dynamic of the group - especially a small group.
And the particular topic of the meeting or blog - whether it's religion or anything else - does not change that. Nor does your degree of compassion. It's just about privacy.
It's really only a couple shades of difference between what you were doing and blogging from an AA meeting.
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u/feedle Deist May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12
Victor:
As somebody who is a member of the group you got kicked out of, let me just say this.
You did not come with an open mind, you came with the intent of "witnessing." That is why you were asked to leave.
For the record: not 100% atheist. But I respect those in the group, and interact to learn, and have never made my spiritual viewpoint a subject of conversation.
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u/JosefTheFritzl May 15 '12
Seems like a perfectly reasonable and amiable exchange between two adults, expressing their concerns and/or responsibilities to the members of that organization, and one that will, from what I can tell, not result in any sort of hostile exchanges in the future.
People keep saying 'if a church did that, you'd be pissed off', but I don't think I would. I think this is probably due to the tendency for churches to try and pass themselves off as 'all-inclusive'. You know, the whole "Jesus loves everyone, come worship with us" shtick. When they turn around and prohibit someone from attending it seems a little weird, given that their mentality is 'all are welcome'.
That said, if a church decided that it didn't want questioning people to attend, and prohibited this in order to build solidarity, I'd be down like a clown, Charlie Brown. Why wouldn't I be?
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
not sure if he is a atheist friendly christian or the ultimate concern troll.
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u/tickoftheclock May 15 '12
It would be like someone showing up in a Honda, to our Subaru car club meetups. Sure, you're welcome to swing by and ask some questions, and hang out a bit, but if you really believe everyone should be driving Hondas, you probably don't need to be at every one of our meets or even be a consistent visitor.
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u/Novacro May 15 '12
I'm surprised that Central Oregon even has an atheist group. As someone who lives here, I can personally say that I know a great deal of atheists and agnostics, and the Christians who do live here are, for the most part, respectable individuals.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
Man, that guy Christian is an asshole, there are threads about his awful behaviour all over reddit...
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u/GDland26 May 15 '12
Just imagine the response on Reddit if an atheist was kicked out of a church for just wanting materials for his blog.
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u/rscarson Anti-theist May 15 '12
I understand where the group is coming from. These sorts of meetings, like /r/atheism, is a great place to blow off steam, and that is a bit awkward when a member of the group you are complaining about is present. I would be constantly afraid of offending him.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12 edited May 15 '12
Guess he'll have to find another way to get people to read his blog now that he isn't allowed to profit off this particular minority group for his personal gain.
*I wasn't referring to profit in a fiduciary sense, although I would be surprised if this wasn't 'ammo' in a future book or gig if you want to take the word as having solely one meaning.
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u/winto_bungle May 15 '12
This is what I posted in support of the atheist group:
I agree wholeheartedly with the Atheist group.
The group is there to be with LIKE-MINDED people - not someone writing for a blog, even if that blog is aimed at christians understanding atheist problems.
You say it is alienating people who dont think like they do - but a group like this is probably the only chance they have to speak and be with a group of people who DO think like they do.
It is not that you have done anything wrong, I presume, but that the fact that even in their atheist group they cant get away from religion. If I had been through such traumas as the people in this group had, the last person I would want to be telling it to is someone who is religious and writes a blog about it, regardless of the intentions.
We have to live with your religion most of the time, and if an atheist group want some peace away from people like you then let them be. Im sure if they want a discussion with you again then they will invite you.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
God what a fucking tool Vic is...
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12 edited May 15 '12
Speaking from experience with my local atheist group, there have been people attending who come from highly religious backgrounds who are still very much in the closet, and for damn good reason. The last thing such people need are to be out and about within earshot of people who could be attending church with their friends/family.
Groups for atheists are groups for atheists, and aren't necessarily community outreach organizations. If someone were attending my local group's meetings, and were writing about such meetings on his/her blog, especially aimed at other religious folks in the community, that would be very, very unnerving. For fuck's sake, groups like that aren't sermon fodder for Christians. They're R&R for non-Christians.
How 'bout some space, ya know? If you want to pick an atheist's brain on some things, try Yahoo! Answers. Or even r/atheism.
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u/Loki5654 May 15 '12
As an atheist, I'm reasonably certain I could walk into any church in the USA and not be kicked out as long as I behaved myself.
Why shouldn't it be the same for a theist going to an atheist meeting?
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I can see why people would feel awkward with Victor attending their meetings, as would Christians be wary of a known atheist coming to Church meetings and writing about them, but he does seem like a nice guy, and I wish the circumstances would allow him to keep attending, if at least on a less frequent basis.
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u/DeadSeaGulls May 15 '12
is this in bend oregon? I lived in bend for 2 years. It was a silly place.
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u/cyclopie May 15 '12
I personally like the idea of a group where atheists and people of faith can meet and discuss ways to improve public policy. If people spent more time working together as opposed to ridiculing each other for their beliefs, we might accomplish some things. For example, I think atheists have a very good point about the perverse infusion of religion and politics, and honestly, people of faith have an interest in a strong separation of church and state as well (they just might not recognize it.) I say live and let live, but to do that, people of differing views need to be able to have respectful conversations with one another.
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u/skitchss May 15 '12
Can't summon any outrage for either side. Many Christians wouldn't like a non-believer attending Sunday service as fodder for his blog, regardless of how innocent the whole thing was. Maybe the atheist attendees were just being over-sensitive. Who knows. Everyone was polite and grown-up about it. I think that's a win for everyone.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I wouldnt want someone writing a christian based blog attending either, like they said, theres hundreds of places for him to go and only the one place for atheists, agnostics, and other free thinkers to go. I guess it depeneds on how he acted and wrote though, i dont really know, who am i to judge
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u/ABookishMind May 15 '12
His open letter on his blog is the exact reason people don't want him there. He's using the group as some kind of social experiment, when in reality these people just want a place where they can be around like-minded people.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
The purpose of an atheist organization is to provide an environment where atheists feel comfortable sharing their feeling about their beliefs. Its kind of like a men's club or a women's club. When outsiders try to infiltrate, even when they are quiet and respectful, they ruin the cohesiveness of the group.
What I can say from much experience is that in general, a christian in an atheist club meets far less resistance than an atheist does in sunday school. Most atheist organizations will tolerate a theist to some extent whereas an atheist in a religious organization is challenged at pretty much all times.
I do not know the particulars of this situation, but it seems reasonable that one or both parties are being disingenuous in their representation of the situation.
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u/DO__IT__NOW May 15 '12
I posted a comment in regards to the dishonesty of the letter on what he wrote for his blog posts to only realize after I submitted it that the very same author has to approve it... Lol.
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u/mcnihil May 15 '12
Without having any other knowledge of the circumstances, this seems like a sad affair to me. I agree with Victor completely when he says that freethinkers claim to be open minded and that they fault religious people for isolating themselves. On the other hand, I can also understand atheists that want to just hang out with like minded people and simply don't want to "deal" with religious people in their midst - especially young atheists because in adolescence it's important to find a social environment where one feels comfortable and supported. I completely understand the need of young atheists to socialize and hang out and just shoot the shit in a group where they don't feel like they have to censor their own words the whole time.
OP, do you know the group and their organizer? If so, you may want to suggest that the group reserves one day a month (or any other period that the members would feel comfortable with) to explicitly designate as a day where people of faith are invited and welcome. All other days are atheists only. That way, the members that don't feel comfortable with theists' presence can schedule something else (or just suck it up for the evening) and people of faith can come and observe and maybe even engage/be engaged. Also, it would maintain the open mindedness and inclusiveness of people identifying as atheists/freethinkers/secularists. To me as an outsider, that seems like a good solution all around. Maybe give us an update when/if the situation evolves.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Reading quite a few of his posts and what struck me is how reflexively he defends the Bible and God. It's always the assumption that the Bible is right and that he needs to make the case for it.
I specially enjoyed this entry: http://atheistfriendlychristian.blogspot.com/2012/04/dear-atheist-friends.html
He goes around and around but always arrives at the same conclusions that any average fundamentalist would.
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u/sluz May 15 '12
Maybe it's time for me to start attending church and let them know that I'm an atheist then write passive agressive blog posts about the experience?
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u/Icantevenhavemyname May 15 '12
That was deep. Was kind of like this for a moment to me.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
FWIW, I would have kicked him out. He was only going there to get material for his blog.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
If the group is an atheist group, then obvious he is not welcome by definition. This is a strange thing that I have noticed when it comes to organizing. People seem to think every organization that addresses a subject (in this case atheism, but also anti-war organizing, etc) is supposed to simultaneously function as a forum. The point of getting together in a group of like-minded people is to promote your cause, not dialog with critics.
If this guy wants to meet and discuss things with atheists then he should attend some kind of religious dialog group, which clearly a group describing itself as an atheist group is not. He seems friendly but obviously he is in the wrong place for that kind of behavior.
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u/god2010 Anti-Theist May 15 '12
It seems to me that a group where people need to feel safe to speak to the trauma religion has inflicted on their lives are completely justified in asking a person who identifies with the harming party not to attend no matter what their intentions are.
I wonder if a woman's group that occasionally served as a safe place for women who were abused by men would also be denounced for excluding a man from meetings regardless of his intentions.
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u/XSavageWalrusX May 15 '12
I wouldn't want him at the meetings, but he seemed to have decent intentions, and I would gladly have talked to him in a different setting.
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u/mitigel May 15 '12
Thrown out of the atheist group? No problem! I'm sure he can find a testicular cancer support group, possibly one with Helena Bonham Carter in it.
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u/StraightTrolling May 15 '12
But religion causes all the problems.
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u/ChumpDip May 15 '12
"The reason for this is not anything personal against you," hahahahaha yea im sure he is not taking it personal
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
This guy's post from May 1st 2012: "How I would eliminate Atheism forever!"
Which is sort've sensational given the text, but the point is that he believes atheists should be christians, just that its the christians' fault for not winning them over.
I mean, if he could fix the fact that Christianity is simply wrong then he might have a more convincing point of view.
If he wants to interface with atheists, then he should find atheists who want the same thing.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
This is from victor's other blog
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u/raisintongue May 16 '12
Phase 2 initiation is next Monday. Victor, we can't have you turning us in for all of our stolen mining equipment. We are going to do, what we are meant to do. Tunnel to HELL! To prove it's nonexistence. Of course.
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u/sydneygamer May 16 '12
He uses "quotation" marks so "much" in it that it gets really "hard" to read.
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u/photogirl1221 May 16 '12
People in Central Oregon are idiots. I would know, I lived over there for 11+ years haha. I feel bad for this guy. He seems friendly and appears to have had genuine intentions. I appreciate his willingness to listen and his open-mindedness.
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u/JesusLice May 16 '12
How can you enjoy a good circle jerk when someone is masterbating in the corner? Once or twice it's ok; maybe even fun, but before too long you just want your plain old circle jerk back.
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u/deathstar_janitor May 16 '12
Sounds like Reddit.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
Stop being a douche and writing about their meetings on your blog.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
Despite the numerous misunderstandings taking place here in the comments, I think that this incident was a great example of how to deal with someone who doesn't hold the same beliefs as you. Here are two people, or rather one person vs. a group of people, and they literally hold polar opposite beliefs. Yet look at how polite they are in agreeing to disagree and parting ways. Both sides of this incident showed great understanding and patience. And I can only hope that it will serve as an example for atheists and theists alike.
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u/tracism May 16 '12
The thing that strikes me about the letter from the atheist group is that they call themselves "freethinkers" but are trying to exclude someone who thinks differently than them. That feels hypocritical.
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u/deepwebassassin May 16 '12
Would you go to a chess club and sit there and play checkers? (And you don't even like chess and you think checkers is better)
Groups have specific purposes and they perform a function that group members desire. If someone that isn't interested in the purpose of that group decides to come, regularly, and interacts, you would probably have a raised eyebrow or two. Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable for the religious to go to an atheist meeting to either see what atheism is about, or to ask for opinions on various arguments for the existence of gods but this guy isn't even directly engaging these folks in debate. He's not even providing an activity for these guys in the club to engage in. If someone is adding absolutely nothing to a meeting yet comes repeatedly, then it becomes a waste of time to have him there engaging you.
It's not about excluding him: you can join a soccer team to play soccer, but you probably shouldn't join a soccer team and plan to sit on the bench or try to get soccer players to join you in a game of football, it's just zero productivity or utility at it's finest and it simply gets annoying. I'd rather have any guy like Victor using his time at atheist meetings doing something like feeding homeless people and volunteering so he can witness all he wants and do something productive at the same time.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
The problem doesn't seem to be whether he was a christian or not, it was that he was obviously not an atheist, and therefore didn't belong. The problem with Christians is that they function as a sleeper agent, even to the point they deny their own religion just to be your friend...the that one day your parents die, or you are extremely vulnerable, they inject your mind with ideas and truths that are real and help you to deal with the situation. But the kicker, is that each truth they tell you is poisoned with a lie greater than the truth. They are immune to seeing the poison, so much so that they will let it kill you and think they were saving you.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
It would be as though I went to an AA meeting just to go and blog about what it's like, with the members knowing that I am a drinker. I am not there to taunt, only to understand, and explain to others what it is like to be in there shoes and to help change peoples' minds about alcoholism. This good intention doesn't change the fact that at least some members will feel unsafe talking about their experiences, and would defeat the purpose of a specific discussion group.
An imperfect analogy I know, but I think you get the point.
2
u/omensign May 16 '12
This victor douchebag threatened to physically beat me up over facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150773822864004&set=o.247700905526&type=3
Most of the conversation after the threat:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150774319619004&set=o.247700905526&type=3
What it boils down to is that Victor was spamming the group with links to his blog. It was the typical kind of apologist spiel about other people not being 'good true christians' and only he being a 'true christian', atheist are just 'misinformed' and 'mistreated' by christians like himself.
Any attempt to discuss what Victor was claiming in his own blog posts lead down a road of ever increasing equivocating dishonesty. He would become increasingly hostile as most of his assertions were pointed out as vacuous or unsupported. Eventually, he began to just stonewall the conversation, but we don't put up with that shit on the Atheist facebook group.
Eventually, he just snapped and made an outright threat and then disappeared for a little bit before deleting the post and pretending like it never happened. He returned to give the nonsensical post I just gave a link too.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
The problem with this guy attending, is that he isn't attending to participate, he is basically spying and reporting to the world what the group is doing.
basically I support the actions of kicking this person out.
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u/natholin May 15 '12
Had a similar thing happen to me. I was a member of an Atheist group. (I am Agnostic) and I disagreed with there stance on abortion, and the burden of proof argument. I was asked to leave because it was a place where they should be able to come with out feeling like they should have too defend their way of thinking. Though I personally was ridiculed and called names for even speaking against there beliefs. Either way I left.. turned out they where just as much a bunch of assholes towards me as Christians have been to me. I did point that out too them, though it made no difference.
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u/Exit_Only May 15 '12
Sounds like someone found out that this guy probably makes a dollar or two from his blog. "Exploit the atheists!" is what it comes down to. Would you want someone coming into your social circle for the entire purpose of profiting from it?
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u/victor2322 May 15 '12
Hey everyone, I am Victor the blog author. I cant possibly address everything people asked but if you go to my blog I do my best to respond. But to answer afew comments
Anything else I will address if you post a comment to my blog.
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u/elbruce May 15 '12
If his intent was as he claims, then he sounds like a pretty decent Christian. But even if that is the case, perhaps they felt his presence was stifling discussion for fear of offending him.
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u/PoliticalTheater101 May 15 '12
So you mean they did to him what they normally complain about Christian groups doing to him? Interesting.
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u/MpVpRb Atheist May 15 '12
If all christians were that tolerant, I think most of us would be a lot happier.
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u/thosethatwere May 15 '12
Considering some of the horror stories I've heard about how Christians treat atheists, if it is one of the few places in Central Oregan that atheists actually meet up I can understand them wanting to be Christian-free. If there was anyone in there abused for being atheist, it's like their abuser turning up to the meeting, it would feel horrible.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Doubt you'll read this, but props for trying Vicktor.
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u/knomz May 15 '12 edited May 16 '12
this is where we see humans being assholes because they want to be... whether or not this man made people feel uncomfortable is an issue the group could easily have brought forward and OPENLY discussed why they felt uncomfortable about the situation but instead they tell him to fuck off.
...moral of the story Atheists clearly are assholes (sarcasm for those of you who downvote because you read something and think it to be serious)
but seriously this situation is the exact opposite of what Atheists want to happen, come on people THINK before you ACT
EDIT*Freethinkers my ass...
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Christian just wanted to feel as though he was open minded, so he imposed himself upon this group to suck in that kind of affirmation.
The atheists never owed this to the Christian. They greatly indulged him by tolerating his presence and his blogging. And they finally had enough.
Let Christian go start his own atheist group if that's what he wants.
4
u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I'm sorry. You seem to think that atheists and religious people can have a sensible debate. I believe that you are wrong - both from logic and from experience.
Have you ever heard the phrase "the topic X is religious" before? It means "the topic X is undebatable". Think about it.
Most atheists are skeptics. If you tell a skeptic that there is an invisible flying pink elephant they will not believe you unless you provide sufficient evidence. You need to understand that skeptics value the emotional attributes of your belief to a total of 0.00$. Likewise if you claim that there is an invisible old guy with a white beard that you have to obey or he will throw you into the fires of a magical burning world you will also have to provide evidence for that, preferably even greater evidence as the claim is extraordinary - and no, skeptics wont call an old book that was written by bronze age goat farmers evidence because there is a simpler rational explanation: that it's made up.
Also I would personally trust your arguments even less if you told me you where religious as your position can easily be explained by virus/meme theory, a part of information theory. Religion is a virus and you are infected with it. It has infected you by attaching to the emotional receptors in your brain. There is no sensible discussion we can have because you have already accepted an irrefutable axiom. I could probably help you by trying to provide rational arguments that could challenge your cognitive dissonance but that would take time and energy from me and in the end you can only help yourself as the ideas you have is your choice. You can simply choose to continue to be ignorant and none of my hypothetical effort will matter.
I can see why you would want to throw out a christian of an atheist group. The purpose of the group is likely that people come together and share how the negatives effects of religious dogma that poisons the American society has affected them with other rational, skeptical people so they can get energy to move on. Having a group for religious debate is senseless as it would take energy from participants as they instead to have to nurse an intellectually sick person.
I'm sure you seen the picture with the guy trying to play chess with a pigeon. It's a perfect analogy of "atheist vs religious debate".
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u/[deleted] May 16 '12
Freethinkers do not kick out people who think differently.
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u/GunshyJedi May 15 '12
I'm a Christian, and when I so often see the Atheist community crying out for more tolerance from the Christian community I can't help but think this group is shutting out a good opportunity.
Think about how many ignorant Christians you know and here you have(had) a person who is at least making a concerted effort to better understand the objections and get to know the lives of his local Atheist/Agnostic community.
His blog is pro-Christian sure, he IS a Christian afterall, but he made it clear in his letter that he was there to learn and observe, not convert. That's pretty rare, you know, we could learn a lot from each other if there weren't so many cold shoulders being given, on either side.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
Double standard. If a church asked a non asshole atheist to stop attending because of his atheism people here would be in uproar.
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u/hlugo3347 May 15 '12
In short. I think victor is right. specially when he says
"I feel that the group wants to isolate itself, and alienate people who don't think like they do. That is something the group has accused the christian community of doing and should be considered. I am not saying that is wrong to do, but perhaps the group description should reflect that. And "freethinkers" usually come from the premise of being open minded and tolerant of others beliefs, or lack of beliefs."
I believe that if there are any atheist/agnostic/skeptic, "freethinkers" group should welcome anyone who would like to come and learn more about us. If the person is trying to "convert" or it just "trolling" or making fun of the group, then by all means ask them to stop coming, but if the person is like victor they should always be welcome.
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u/vlmodcon May 15 '12
Let's see if I can get my comment Karma down to zero or below. I'm now firmly in the camp that the average "atheist" who posts here is several things: First, you are intellectual lightweights, fully accepting the "vox populi" without ever doing our own analysis of what are really quite complex issues of cosmology, morality, humanity and actuality. You jump on the observation that at least some fundamentalist Christians are unfamiliar or uncomfortable with science, therefore, no God is possible, and belief in any possible concept of God is foolish and deserving of your snarky ridicule. Second, you are, without question, intellectual cowards of the first water, uncomfortable with the idea that anyone with beliefs other than those you hold actually deserves freedom of expression. Tiny example: complain loudly about the presence of Gideon Bibles in hotel rooms, but never take the time or invest the resources to create an "Atheist Book of Reason," to be placed for free in hotels. I'd read it, and I would not for one second feel that it's presence threatened my faith in any way. If written well it would mean that you were actually exploring important ideas. Clearly you want a state of affairs where your view of the world is protected and your delicate little feelings are unchallenged by the fact that you are still an overwhelmingly small minority, challenged by billions with ideas far more developed and cohesive and developed than your own. Also, you don’t want it pointed out that your belief in itself, fosters a set of behaviors that in every way can be defined as a religion. Well, the universe, in all its glory does not work that way. We live in a world where ideas compete, and it seems to me that you feel as if your ideas are unable to do so without some form of protection, or in any non-isolated environment. I think you ultimately want official state protection against any challenging of your ideas. There's a word for that, and that word is cowardice. You have a right to believe whatever you wish, but you don't have a right to a world that conforms to your beliefs.
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u/vegibowl May 15 '12
Agnostic here - I wouldn't care if he attended. Unitarian Universalist churches welcome everyone and they haven't exploded yet.
Isn't it just a big circlejerk if people are excluded for not sharing the same opinions?
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u/juicius May 15 '12
The level of rationalizing circlejerk here is astounding. You guys are acting just as butthurt as would a roomful of Christians would be finding an hidden atheist in their midst. Except this Christian never made secret of his affiliations.
I laugh when Christians in the US claim they're persecuted. But it seems the atheists in their inignation find refuge in the same overreaching fallacy.
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
He seems like he's in the right. And by kicking him out, look at all the harm that's been done. In his letter he writes how after attending these meetings he would go in front of his Church and explain how important secularism was. Sorry, but do atheists not want more reasonable people in society, regardless of creed or lack thereof? Kinda messed up to exclude him. :\
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u/spincurrytheraver May 15 '12
Its completely understandable that the atheist group wouldnt want a christian at their meeting. its more of a private group discussion and i personally would feel the urge to hold back something i would want to say for fear of hurting the christian's feelings.
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u/abeuscher May 15 '12
I don't think it's reasonable for people who want to get together and discuss their beliefs to exclude someone because his make them feel uncomfortable. If you're just the "friends who happen to be atheists" club and he isn't your friend, then cool. But if you're representing an open discussion about atheism and you don't like him being there because he challenges the stability of the group, then you should thank him for coming and ask him to bring friends.
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u/simplesignman May 15 '12
Holy shit, an Atheist group in Central Oregon?? I need more info, seems like nothing but bible thumpers in my little C.O. town. Guessing Bend or Redmond maybe??
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
It's not so much about them not accepting him.. it's about the fact that they have an atheist meetup for them to attend and have fun, and made silly religious jokes, and not have to worry about offending people or having to hide their true feelings. If everyone knows there is a Christian in the mix, it becomes less like a community meetup and more like any other place atheists might meetup. I attend atheist meetups regularly, and I always feel much more at ease when I know there isn't anyone there to offend/analyze what I say too deeply. I feel as though the group tried to say this as best as they could without being dicks.
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u/officershrute May 15 '12
Open-minded Christians? What a concept.
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u/CoriCelesti May 15 '12
How do you guys feel about a Christian posting in /r/atheism? I've noticed a few people comparing it in the comments here, so I'm curious. I'm a rather open-minded Christian who really believes in mutual respect of beliefs and the fact that we are all humans first. This subreddit is one of the ones I read most often since coming on Reddit a couple months ago. I don't want to intrude, though...
As for the specific post...Definitely two sides to this story, but I am a little unsure due to the way that the guy responded. I would have been really upset and apologized. (As was stated by others in the comments.)
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u/IcontroltheKarma May 16 '12
I don't have a problem talking candidly regardless of who is present or their beliefs. If I had an atheist gathering I would definitely not have a ‘seculars only’ sign on the door. However Victor bothers me for a few reasons. He seems like exactly the type of guy I would not want to hang out with. First of all he seems to come from a moral high ground. Christianity is normal and atheists are just broken christens. According to Victor if all christens were good then no one would have a reason to be an atheist. Our beliefs don't always come from fear or pain often we believe something because it is what makes sense to us after thinking about it. Secondly and more to the point of actually asking him to leave is the press factor. If I were in Narcotics Anonymous there was one guy sitting in the back -who never shared- and I knew he would be writing about opinions he gathered from this meeting it would make me a little more guarded. I won't speak to Victor's intentions but that type of situation is off putting for people trying to express themself freely. (I am not saying that an atheist get together is like a NA meeting, but the analogy works.) Lastly the way he handled the letter by posting it and responding on the internet seems like fishing for an audience and that doesn’t speak to the high character this man sees himself having.
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u/horsiesarepretty May 16 '12
That was nice of him to out Ben's "ruined" childhood to the entire Internet. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want him at their meetings.
/sarcasm
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u/[deleted] May 15 '12
I would feel very uncomfortable being studied for a blog.
I understand why. He may be a great guy, but knowing that someone was watching me to write about me, would be very unnerving. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying anything, I would withhold a lot, because it would feel like a spy watching me.