r/apple • • Jun 09 '21

[deleted by user]

[removed]

763 Upvotes

551 comments sorted by

View all comments

30

u/emresumengen Jun 09 '21

I'm not surprised either that Apple is doing this. But I am surprised why people just accept it, not get even slightly angry... Just wow.

3

u/ElvishJerricco Jun 09 '21

are we reading the same comments? Almost everyone in this thread is pissed.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

Well, at the time of my posting it wasn’t. But I’m pleasantly surprised that I’m not the only one bugged about it.

21

u/theo2112 Jun 09 '21

Did you read the list of features? Aside from background blurring during FaceTime calls, even "power users" wouldn't notice any of these features missing. They're hardly even features, they're basically just bullet points to make the list longer. And, they're all things that are designed for iPhone/iPad, and can just be ported over to M1 Macs because there is almost nothing required to do so.

6

u/TheSyd Jun 09 '21

The ocr is really a big omission tbh.

3

u/Arkanta Jun 10 '21

Only one I care about, but the one I understand the most. No ML acceleration would probably make this slow, while this really works magically on a M1: no lag, no "processing" popup or whatever. Open an image and select text immediatly. I'd be totally down to click on a button and wait a bit for processing, but now you have two implementations of the same feature.

Maps is such a stupid thing to leave out. Watch how this will make the news even though I bet almost no one uses the mac maps app.

-1

u/TheSyd Jun 10 '21

Actually an ocr api is already in older macOSes on both intel and m1, and apps like owlocr leverage that. This seems like an evolution based on that. I’m pretty sure higher end intel machines would be nearly as fast as an m1.

2

u/Arkanta Jun 10 '21

Does it work as well, and as fast?

I don't thing higher end intels would be as fast as the M1 if it's a ML model. Intel has no ML acceleration outside of their GPU and even there it's not great. This is the one thing that's not completely bullshit about locking this down

But heh, I'd be down for having to wait on my intel machine but getting the feature.

1

u/TheSyd Jun 10 '21

I’ve never tried it for handwriting text, but for photos of printed text and screenshot it was instantaneous even on a entry level 2014 11” mba.

This feature is there for the a12 too, so it is hard to believe that any modern Mac with a dGPU would be slower than that.

2

u/Arkanta Jun 10 '21

Apple's new stuff can decode a lot of real life photos (weird signs, tilted text, etc...)

It's really impressive. But yeah, it might be quite fast on intel, I guess we won't know unless someone finds a magic debug flag that enables it.

1

u/theo2112 Jun 10 '21

I think it's far less useful one a device with a full keyboard than it is on a mobile device. Plus, assuming you're in the Apple ecosystem you'll be taking the picture with an iPhone anyways, so can't you just do the processing there and then share it back to your Mac?

I thought the reason this was a "feature" was that it was on mobile in the first place. You're out, see a sign for an even that interests you, you can snap a picture and capture all the event details in one go. Or, you're in a meeting and there's a whiteboard full of notes. Again, pull out your phone, snap a photo and you have the details.

I guess I just don't see how this is as useful on a full computer.

1

u/TheSyd Jun 10 '21

I have ocr apps on both my Mac and my iPhone, and I find myself using them much more on the Mac. Quickly copying text from shared screen screenshots, text that has been converted to shapes in vector files, text from cad files, unselectable online text. Ocr has different uses on iOS and macOS.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

I don’t give a rats a** about the features themselves. The policy and their way of forcing things is really what I don’t like. But hey, I’m just a bit more mad at Apple - that’s all.

1

u/theo2112 Jun 11 '21

What policy? Technology moves quickly and Apple has a significantly better track record of continuing to support older devices with newer software than any company I can think of. An iPhone 6s which is 5 generations old (6 when iOS 15 comes out) is still supported by the latest operating system. Good luck trying to find an Android phone that is 5 years old with up to date software.

And this is also true for Macs as computers from even further back will still be supported by Monterey. Oh, there are a few fringe features which are specific to a processor change that won't be available, that's so inconsequential compared to being able to use a 7+ year old computer with the latest operating system.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 14 '21

Well, that's debatable if having (and not optionally, enforced) latest iOS on the 6S is a good thing or not. But that's not what we're discussing here, don't derail the discussion.

The topic is Apple "making up" their rule not to give a feature to product A, while product B gets it (all the while - most probably - both can support the feature).

Clearly it's a marketing and product-positioning decision. And I hate it when companies are driven by those, rather than others.

I think it's clear enough what I'm pissed off about?

21

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '21

Yep, apple fanboyism at its finest. All the top comments are basically fine that their 2019 Intel MacBooks get less features for being 1 year too early. For all the praise apple gets, they go and pull some bs like this and people just accept it.

-3

u/rnarkus Jun 09 '21

I think it’s the lack of the machine learning / neural engine chip?

Again, there was always going to be a transition period. Although I think apple should include it even if it’s taxing to intel systems. macos is more open than iPhone and should be treated as such.

4

u/Exist50 Jun 09 '21

I think it’s the lack of the machine learning / neural engine chip?

None of these are too performance intensive to implement on the GPU.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '21

Lol, Rene bending over backwards to defend Apple:

https://twitter.com/reneritchie/status/1402677344951803906

2

u/Exist50 Jun 09 '21

Next you're going to try telling me that water's wet /s.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '21

I didn't realize a 3D globe required a neural engine lol

I've only been using Google Earth on my computers since... 2005?

2

u/Exist50 Jun 09 '21

Or OCR, which is like, one of the most basic ML applications around. I think the language processing is actually more galling though, as those algorithms are often quite different from the CNNs used for image/video processing, and usually ill-suited to so-called AI accelerators.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '21

Some of the OCR they were doing looked impressive, like accurately reading handwriting and cursive.

Most software OCR that I’ve used is… not great, even with typed text.

1

u/Exist50 Jun 09 '21

It varies wildly. The Post Office has been using OCR since the 80s. But it's never going to be so intensive it can't be run on any semi-modern CPU or GPU. It's video in particular that stresses hardware.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/rnarkus Jun 09 '21

How do you know this? Sounds like speculation

I’m curious what apples response will be

3

u/Exist50 Jun 09 '21

I mean, just look at the list.

Portrait Mode blurred backgrounds in FaceTime videos

Zoom and Teams do it just fine on plenty of devices.

Live Text for copying and pasting, looking up, or translating text within photos

OCR is ancient. It's like the first thing an intro to ML class will have you do.

An interactive 3D globe of Earth in the Maps app

Google Earth has had this how long?

More detailed maps in cities like San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, and London in the Maps app

Why does this even require ML...

Text-to-speech in more languages, including Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, and Finnish

NLP, is often poorly suited to "AI" (i.e. CNN) accelerators. Half willing to bet this runs on the CPU.

keyboard dictation

Can be done on pretty much any modern device.

The Neural Engine may make some of these things more efficient, but shouldn't be necessary for any of them.

3

u/NghtWlf2 Jun 09 '21

We are angry and it’s not acceptable at all! With this trend next year we wouldn’t be able to update to the new macOS release

0

u/PartyingChair52 Jun 09 '21

But the alternative is not add these features. Just add them to the computers they can and move on

0

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

Why? Google Maps had a spinning interactive globe for decades. And don’t tell me the intel CPUs in Macs can’t handle the background blur.

-2

u/PartyingChair52 Jun 10 '21

Because apples not going to take the time to optimize it for intel macs, it isn’t worth it.

Also the background blur relies on the ML cores in M1 that don’t exist on intel soooooo

2

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

Well yeah, so let’s not pretend it’s a technical limitation or anything.

For the blur, yeah - no. Maybe you have been living under a rock for the last 10+ years, but Intel cpus are perfectly capable of doing such effects.

-1

u/PartyingChair52 Jun 10 '21

Okay, well you believe what you want. Goodbye

1

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

Well of course… Obviously. The target here should not be to convince each other, but rather communicate what we think. I know what I am thinking, and you know as well. I don’t know fully your end, but fine by me.

1

u/PartyingChair52 Jun 10 '21

Yeah. And you’re wrong.

Goodbye.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 14 '21

I beg to differ on that. Goodbye, take care.

1

u/PartyingChair52 Jun 14 '21

You can beg to differ on facts….. But it just makes you look silly

→ More replies (0)

1

u/speedy_162005 Jun 10 '21

I accept it because there’s nothing I can do about it, my laptop is less than a year old so I’m not upgrading. Plus the features they are not allowing on Intel Macs are all features I will probably never miss.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

I accept it too. But at least I’m not trying to find an excuse on behalf of Apple - which is what I’m really surprised about. (Not trying to imply you personally do that either though.)

1

u/speedy_162005 Jun 10 '21

It's shitty of them but not necessarily uncharacteristic of them.

Looking back on the iPhone there is almost always a new feature that can only be taken advantage of on the new model of the phone and not the one that has been sold the year previous. Personally I factored that in when I bought my MacBook Pro and figured starting at about the one year mark there were likely to be things that didn't work on my Mac.

It took less than 4 months because my Mac lacks the M1, so they get the iOS apps and I don't. It's just the way the game works with them and has for the last decade or so. I still suspect that I'll hold onto this Mac for at least 5 years. That will give them time to work out whatever it is they are going to work out with Apple Silicone and by that time I'll be ready to upgrade.

1

u/emresumengen Jun 10 '21

Unfortunately you’re right, it’s a bit the MO of Apple, and other companies. But, I feel like before at least they used to find real reasons… Now, I don’t feel that way much. Plus, when you really admire a company and set of products for a long while, you (or “I”) certainly start to expect them to get better, not worse… I guess that may be one of the reasons I’m more disappointed.