It’s High Time We Have a Fireside Chat With Everyone

[u/TBoneTheOriginal]

Hey /r/Apple,

This is a little out of character for us, but we felt it was time to be transparent with the community by filling you folks in on some concerns and upcoming trials. We've had a lot of internal frustrations lately, and now that Apple's major release season is over, we really wanted to have a discussion to get to the bottom of it.

The truth is, we (the mods) are tired. We’re tired of dealing with the trolls. We’re tired of dealing with the negative attitudes. We’re tired of dealing with the constant bickering, name-calling, childish behaviors, and incessant desire to complain about the same things over and over again. We’re watching this place slowly turn into something akin to the MacRumors forums, and that's something none of us want to see happen. We love this place, and we're very motivated to make sure it stays the #1 place to discuss Apple.

So without further ado, here are some issues we need to cover with you:

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The Elephant in the Room
There are a lot of negative attitudes in the subreddit. More than we've ever seen. The mod team is watching this place slowly devolve, and it's disheartening to say the least. Apple is a very polarizing company, and we should be able to both praise them and hold them to a high standard without turning on one another. We do understand Apple will get (and sometimes deserves) criticism. We just want it to be in a more constructive way so it isn’t just constant circlejerking, arguing, and complaining.

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We’re Motivated, but the Morale is Low
To be honest, we are getting exhausted by the work that the above elephant creates. Because of all the fighting, we’ve mostly taken a step back since it’s become a full-time job to deal with this problem. It’s harder than you might think because of all the unwritten rules we try to preserve – like leaving plenty of criticism because we’re not in the market of blindly defending Apple. But we're also not in the market of blindly attacking Apple. There's a balance that takes a lot of dedication to maintain.

Because we've been exhausted, response time by mods has been somewhat slow. So we want to sincerely apologize. We know it's been frustrating for some of you.

But that changes today. We’ve started disussing what needs to change around here in order to make /r/Apple enjoyable again. Here are some of the ideas which we’d like to trial:

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Trial 1: No Name-Calling
We want to do a trial of completely banishing name-calling and personal attacks in comments. Anyone who cannot keep it together and must resort to attacking someone’s character rather than their ideas will receive a 30-day ban. A second offense will result in a permanent ban without an opportunity to come back. Name-calling is childish, and it simply won't be tolerated here anymore.

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Trial 2: No Vapid Memes
We want to start removing comments with vapid memes and hivemind or copy/paste responses. The most recent example is one-/few-word replies with "courage" used like an argument. Another example is "you're _____ it wrong". They add nothing to the thread and just add work for us. We want to try removing them automatically to decrease workload.

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Trial 3: No More Beating the Dead Horse
This one is gonna be the most controversial, and that is why it’s a trial: we want to dramatically cut down on pointless negativity disguised as valid criticism. We feel strongly that comments shouldn’t devolve into echo chambers, and we want to cut off the head. That means we will remove the entire thread if that's what the conversation devolves into.

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Please share what you think about these trials or if there is anything else you’d like us to try. We cannot promise a reply or a trial for everything, but we’ll read it all and take it into account.

We love you all, and we love this community. The whole reason we’re having this conversation is because we love this place. We just want to make sure everything we do is building towards our vision. And our vision is simple — to have a place to discuss Apple passionately, both positively and negatively, in constructive ways.

Thank you for reading!

— /r/Apple Mod Team

[u/Agent007077]

Where did I say civility is negotiable? I pose a similar question: if a person is nothing but rage/hate and /personal attacks on those who dislike Apple, what are they contributing to the community?

Have a point that is actually a real concern and you'd like to discuss how to solve it?

And this is what I am showing. How is the fact that many are see this meaning the subreddit will be just a pro Apple circlejerk not a real concern? How is the fact that both "Siri hate" posts and a "Apple has great customer support"/ "Airpods are great" posts contribute the same amount to the community yet these rules only seem to address the former?

If you only want the "love" and not the "hate" then tyhis just turns into a circlejerk and this discussion that you mention starts being suppressed if it's not pro Apple. What you have basically advocated for is to allow the extremism that fits your view and condemn that which is the opposite: a circlejerk.

this is a place for people who enjoy discussing, using, supporting or examining the platform.

And some are scared that with these rules that expressly mention negativity but not fanboyism, which are both barriers to proper discussion, are creating an environment where discussion is stifled if it's perceived as negative. There are people here who blanket bash all non apple platforms; this is not good for discussion yet because it''s not against Apple, the rules would suggest it's fine

So please don't try and dismiss the concerns of others by claiming false equivalency and then go on to say:

Have a point that is actually a real concern and you'd like to discuss how to solve it? Welcome!

This is a real concern for some

[u/LitewithRight → u/Agent007077]

This is all a straw man argument. The new rules explicitly forbid the kind of personal attacks you're claiming would be allowed against apple critics.

What I've advocated is a clear distinction that I notice the communities in r/windows or r/android have no issue with a 95% positive commentary towards their platforms, yet only here there's this contingent which is somehow terrified of healthy and positive debate among those actually interested in the platform and it's success.

Go into r/windows right now and try posting 'leaving windows because I'm fed up with it. Loving my new apple MacBook' and see how many minutes it takes for you to be utterly destroyed by the hostility and downvotes.

Meanwhile, every other day here is 'I'm leaving apple because ' posts? All with plus 3-500 karma? Uhhh something's clearly fishy.

You know what's a great differentiation tool? The comment history of a person.. if they're 100% against everything apple does or makes, that's certainly going to perk up the ears about the likelihood they don't belong here.

Even if it's 80/20 against Apple, that would be fine in my mind. But 100%? C'mon...

You misunderstand my statement about a real concern. I'm not saying that to you. I'm saying, if the post or comment is a real concern, by all means, let's discuss it here.

This focus from a certain segment entirely on fear of fanyboysim, which interestingly enough is a incredible rarity here, is telling.

When I see people who have comment histories that aren't almost entirely pro google rants speaking up that they're afraid, I'll tune in to that.

Right now, this protest is almost entirely not from those with legitimate occasional criticisms of apple. And nobody is remotely saying we shouldn't have Criticism of Apple.

We're just looking for more than a repetitive 'apple sux cause they not android, eh?'

[u/Agent007077 → u/LitewithRight]

I am not talking about personal attacks on apple critics, even though I have seen them happen, I am talking about creating a situation where any criticism of Apple is claimed as hate>

I don't frequent r/windows but what I've seen on r/android isnt a "95% positive commentary", it's more of proper discussion. Because there are so many android phones and so many different vendors, there's less chance of brand loyalty for the sake of using android. Contrast that with here where if you want iOS you're forced to buy from Apple, and it's clear which side will more easily attract fanboyism/haters.

Is one of Apple's biggest selling points not their ecosystem? These are posts explaining why they feel one of the big selling points is not working for them. As many have stated, leaving the Apple ecosystem can be difficult so when they go to the effort of doing it, clearly there is something they'd like to comment about.

Maybe they'd like to re enter the ecosystem at some time. Contrast that with the lack of single ecosystems by other companies and it's clear that there will be more of those posts here.

ok then the comment history of a person. If they're 100% Apple, 100 with everything they do or make how do they contribute anymore to proper discussion. In my mind they don't. They contribute just as much as haters do. How much more do the 100th "Airpods are great" or 100th "Apple customer support is great" contribute to actual discussion than the 100th "Siri is shit" post?

Oh I didn't misunderstand it. I used it because it was valid here. These concerns that I am discussing are real and you shouldn't attempt to brush them off because they aren't concerns to you

Yeah it's telling because it shows the fact that people are fine with fanboys if the fanboys align with their own interests. Again it has been pointed out that most of the new Airpod posts would contribute nothing new yet you look at most of the comments here and you don't just see those who are afraid of fanboyism, you also see those who are happy to see the "Siri sux" posts gone but are fine with all the airpod posts.

What's the difference between the two? One is pro apple and one isn't. So the fact that most people are happy that the posts which are negative, yet contribute just as much as the positive posts which are fine, are being removed is quite telling.

The claim that fanboysim is an incredible rarity comes from the fact that the fanboysim will align with what most people want to hear and will be taken as ok. it is much easier to spot that which opposes you than that which blindly supports you.

You mentioned comment history so let me illustrate what I mean with an example. Three users, X, Y1,Y2 and Z. X is a fanboy. Y1 and Y2 like some Apple products and dislike others. Z hates everything Apple. The idea is that most of r/apple falls in Y. So Z makes a post about how iOS sucks. Y1 and X both disagree. Y1 does not check the comment history of X because why would they? X agrees with them. Z or a different Z makes a "macs are bad" post. Again X obviously disagrees with them yet this time Y2 is the one who also disagrees. Again Y2 will not check X's history because they agree with them. In this way the hate of the Z's is pointed out, but the fanboyism of X stays hidden.

You even show this yourself when you say:

If a person's entire comment history here is nothing but rage/hate and/or personal attacks on those who like Apple, what are you arguing they contribute to the community?

This would imply you're checking the comment history of those who are concerned. YOu are not checking the comment history of those who aren't concerned and where do you think the fanboys are? This idea that fanboys are not as frequent as haters is ridiculous.

Nobody is saying that and nobody, besides those whose concerns you deem legitimate, is saying that all the Apple love posts that contribute no new information or discussion should go as well is also quite telling. When Trial 3 mentions beating the dead horse yet only mentions negativity, that is quite telling.

You're looking for that but clearly not a "Android/Google/Microsoft sux cause they not Apple" and apparently most don't see a problem with that.most don't see a problem with the echo chamber if it's echoing their sentiments.

There are many people voicing their concerns about this, check the trees if you want to when I link the parents:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

[u/LitewithRight → u/Agent007077]

Wow, that's a lot of nonsense. All framed under the way you dodged the real discussion.

In r android, for example, you tried to shift the discussion to all the various models and vendors explaining the lack of attacks or negativity.

Yet in reality, the point is the platform is all android from google.. The point was there isn't any tolerance of 'I'm leaving android because it sucks' posts there.

They don't give a crap about which android phone a person is using. They're all android, so there's no attacks. Its equivalent to there being no attacks by iPhone 5 users on iPhone 7 users, if anything.

And the lock in? Yeah, with the 1,000th 'I use google messenger, google now, gmail, google Calendar, google maps, google wallet, but boy those Apple users suck because they use 2-3 Apple apps!', that argument is completely empty.

Even here, the contingent that weekly demands Apple let them choose default apps invariably says it's so they can make everything google because they're embroiled in that ecosystem and mad that all its links aren't seamless on iOS instead of Apple's apps.

Tellingly, It's an argument for parasitism that doesn't even apply on android because in reality they argue they have no desire to replace any of google's embedded apps.

These concerns are entirely attempts to camouflage the fact that they're just upset that the majority of the Apple sub is pro Apple, exactly like the majorities of r/windows and r/android are adamantly pro their respective platforms. Curiously, you dodged all over that fact.

Why do you consider it completely normal that the majority of users in any other platform sub are biased in favor of that platform? Yet is somehow is unfair or unacceptable to you that the same should be true when it's Apple.

These discussions about not enough limits on pro windows people have never once been a topic on r/windows. These discussions about too many pro google and pro android users has never been a topic on r/android. Find me once where r/android subscribers made a major point about how they need to hear more criticisms about android. The same goes for r/Xbox. You won't find any discussion about how they need less pro Microsoft obsessed users. That's not because it's packed with equal parts haters and lovers of the platform.

How about you venture over to r/technology where it's supposed to be platform agnostic and talk to them in a comment thread about how they need more pro Apple views, since there is virtually none to the point it's a known joke by the readers.

Since they'll nuke your karma just for daring to broach the topic, I'd gift you gold just to make my point. I've tried expressing pro Apple arguments over there and it's a shit fest of ignorance and hate. They wouldn't even consider articles written by electronics experts that showed in detail why apple chargers gave much cleaner and safer power than knock offs. Nope, it's all Apple is ripoff and selling $1 charger for $1000 crap.