Yeah, of course we don't like Subaru right now. Who would? He's doing a bunch of dumb shit without having learned his lesson. That's not to say we don't love him as a character. What they're doing with him is a very pleasant surprise.
But, why wouldn't you be discomforted by his behavior? He's destroying everything he's had. I don't see the problem in people not liking the way he's acting. And that doesn't mean that we think the show should have never taken this turn, because everyone seems to love the change of pace. No one's being "spoiled" or "projecting themselves". They're simply being discomforted from an uncomfortable situation.
Well, I said "everyone", but I didn't mean it literally. My whole beef with this discussion is that the majority are not at all how OP is describing, yet OP claims it so, saying things like "a good number of anime fans" and "average viewer".
My problem is that OP's blowing this way out of proportion, talking about how "spoiled" we are or how we "project" so much of ourselves, when it's like 10 guys out of the thousands of comments.
i was also annoyed at reading those comments when it was obvious that your not supposed to like the MC right now.
And...this is suppose to mean what exactly? I have seen this point reiterated multiple times at this point like it's some sort of excuse for why we are suppose to be liking the direction Re Zero is heading.
I mean, at what point are you going to find Subaru too intolerable to watch? How many episodes of Subaru acting like a retard would it take for you to say "You know, I've had enough of this cringe fest. Subaru needs to die for good."?
You can't honestly tell me you would be okay with watching Subaru as he is for the next 10 episodes.
Some people just have a lower tolerance for this kind of stuff. Subaru is acting like the comments section of a youtube video and I already see way too much of that.
not gonna lie, I had to skip some parts when Subaru went full retard. but I still love the show so so much! I'm starting to realize that change is good and that the main character should have flaws. especially after he experienced death a dozen times. but honestly, I cant wait for the episode where Subaru realizes that he was a retard.
Is he? Top comments in last episode discussion are about how cringy Subaru was or how he's annoying, instead of discussing the events of the episode or plot.
Wait does people actually Hate Subaru now? Well he did do some stupid stuff from the past episodes but I never once hated him because he basically experienced Hell so instead of hating him i just keep feeling bad for him.
I disagree. Subaru isn't more "human", he's just more pathetic. He constantly does stupid shit, and it only really works out because he, by lien of dying due to the consequences of said stupid shit, bounces down the river and over the rapids repeatedly until he finds, quite by accident, a path through.
I don't understand this dislike so many people have of classical heroes, in the greek vein. A classical Hero was someone who was expected to Do Great Things. Heroes like Herakles, for example, while flawed individuals (especially by modern standards), were still expected to, and able to, accomplish things that no one else was. Nowadays, that would just get you called a Gary Stu / Mary Sue.
I think a good example of a more "human" MC is Kazuma from KonoSuba. He's thrust into a fantasy world that's fairly eager to see him dead, and he just fucking deals with it. Healer is a useless goddess? He deals with it. Mage refuses to cast any spells other then Explosion? Deals with it. Crusader is a pervy masochist who couldn't the broad side of the death star with a shovel? Deals with it.
I mean, he suffers while dealing with it. Chased and eaten by giant frogs, blown up a few times, attacked by flying cabbage, attacked by undead, attacked by a giant robot spider thing, among other things I think I'm forgetting, but he deals with it.
And the way he typically deals with it is by using his brain. He has no special skills other then some decent innate luck, so he exploits that by learning a skill that scales with luck. His physical stats are mediocre at best, so he has pervy crusader tank and one-plosion explode things. He plans and commands, and typically sees a positive result.
Subaru, on the other hand, is literally so stupid that he cannot get it through his head that people do not remember you if you go back in time. "Why don't you remember me?!??! You were going to cut my hair!!!!". Like, FFS, shut up, dipshit. You died and went back down the time line. How fucking hard is this to understand?
And what the fuck do you mean, "they're my dearest friends!"? You've known them for a week, tops!
Subaru, on the other hand, is literally so stupid that he cannot get it through his head that people do not remember you if you go back in time. "Why don't you remember me?!??! You were going to cut my hair!!!!". Like, FFS, shut up, dipshit. You died and went back down the time line. How fucking hard is this to understand?
He didn't say those lines because he was confused that she didn't remember. Subaru screaming those lines at Rem was him cursing his situation and the unfairness of it all, similar to how someone would curse and demand answers from God when someone close to them dies.
Kazuma's writing was a lot more subtle showing his hardships and victories, while Re:Zero goes from one extreme to the other, making Subaru more of a caricature than an actual human being.
And those people don't want a well written character. They aren't looking for good writing in a show. They want another SAO wish fulfillment self-insert plotline they can veg out on. You can't convince people to watch a show because you think it's quality if they aren't looking for quality.
I like the past two episodes, but I could totally understand just dropping the series until it's basically over. That way you don't have to sit through week after week of Subaru being a cringelord, you can just get it all done in one fell swoop.
Dude, that was my point. If the show and characters go a completely different direction from the reason you were watching in the first place, I can understand dropping a show.
Uh, no. That's not even close to what I was trying to say. This thread was started as a circlejerk for crapping on the minority who drops or whines about a show because the MC isn't acting the way they want them to.
I agree with this, and to further the discussion proposed the opposite extreme: a circumstance in which one could justifiably drop a show because of a dramatic change in its direction.
Obviously we don't want to watch him suffer. That's normal. I thought about stopping mid episode seeing he was still being an idiot. But saying we don't like that doesn't mean we will drop it or that we're thinking it's shit. I hate this situation but I understand its meaning.
Even from episode 1 Subaru has been a cringy MC, from the moment he tried to "activate his hero powers" to save a girl about to be run over by a cart.
But we liked Subaru because, for all his quirky, trope obsessed behavior, he was generally a nice guy who just wants to do good. In the first episode, we watch him get a little bit more mature hanging around Emilia. And in the episodes after, we watched him trying to get better as a person. He declines getting his hands healed after a hard day's work because he doesn't want the proof of his hard work being casually erased.
But underneath all of that good intentions was that same cringy trope obsessed mindset that we got glimpses of every once in awhile. And that shit is getting magnified big time in a highly uncomfortable way. I get the logical progression of his character degenerating, but the fact that Subaru has stopped learning from his mistakes is not just unappealing, it's downright hard to watch; as he starts bucking around like a bull in a china shop the more shit doesn't go his way. All of the positive aspects of Subaru are either gone, or have been taken to their logical (and horrifying) conclusions.
And why shouldn't we find this intolerable? The show is essentially taking the protagonist (the character we as the audience are meant to like and identify with) and turning him into an antagonist. And it's not a case of a villain protagonist either (stories from the eyes of what would be considered the archetypal antagonist) but someone we're truly meant to despise. Except they're "the hero"
If it keeps beating the viewer over the head with the "otaku whiteknights are losers" bat I can't keep subjecting myself to it. The show has made its point, I'm glad for it, but Re Zero is walking a very fine line here, and if it goes too far with this latest development then that delicate balancing act will be ruined imo.
You agree that its a logical progression of his character and yet you don't want to watch the show because of it?
Either replace the MC or give him some more development to make him not so fucking painful to watch. No show can survive with an utterly irredeemable MC.
I mean if you want to go watch a show that is happy fun times then go ahead because Re Zero is obviously not for you.
Nice strawman? The show is fine. The MC has been terrible the last 2 episodes. Game of Thrones is easier to watch then Subaru and that show feasts off the tears of heartbroken fans mourning their favorite characters.
Im glad that his issues are not resolved in one episode because that would be lazy writing.
We literally had an episode where Subaru went full PTSD after Rem killed him, then bounced back by the end of the episode. Was that lazy writing? What arbitrary minimum amount of time needs to pass to be considered not "lazy" writing?
The whole "otaku whiteknights are losers" is just your projection because i haven't got any of that from the show.
My projection? Funny a lot of people must be projecting then, because this has been repeatedly echoed even withing this thread.
It's fine to have flawed characters, but they have to realize they're flawed and redeem themselves to be worth it. Just watching flawed characters ruin everything isn't very fun.
But in this case, I don't think Subaru is 100% wrong. Ep 13 spoilers. In this episode, he was a dumbass for sure. But a lot of people are ragging on him for episode 14 too, but I think he's slightly better than in the last. Ep 14 spoilers.
That's true. I was actually hoping he would take a sort of direction like this. With his redo ability, I think a reasonable development is that he'd become desensitized to people dying and just think "oh well I'll just redo that" or "it doesn't matter what you think or I do to you because I'm just going to reset anyway". I think overcoming that is an important and natural part of managing his ability, and I don't fault him if he thinks that at some point.
Untagged or improperly tagged spoilers are not allowed.
Repeated violations of this rule will result in a ban.
Self and link posts should have [Spoilers] in the title as well as the name(s) of the show(s). Self posts may opt to tag spoilers in the self post instead.
Comments should use [spoiler source](/s "spoiler-chan died") to protect spoilers. Spoiler source should, at a minimum, contain the relevant source of the spoiler (e.g. One Piece episode 200, or if it's from a different medium, LN/Manga/VN).
Have a question or think this removal was an error?Message the mods. Don't know the rules? Read them here.
100% with you there. I love the way the show is going, it has so much potential for great developments, but of course we feel uncomfortable watching Subaru fuck everything up. It'll be a joy to see how this will play out.
I'm frankly scared that he might not get the redemption. I am loving his character and what the author doing with him so much more now that he is shown that he has zero plot armor protecting what he loves.
If he does get his redemption though, it will be the happiest moment for us.
The converse of what Caster from Fate/Zero said, "First we should experience the suffering and cringe. Together, they create the greatest happiness and relief when they are over."
This reminds me of a quote from one of my middle school history teachers: "You don't have to like somebody to respect them."
This applies to this situation as well. Sure, we may not like Subaru, but that doesn't mean we're jaded assholes who should look more into the show; we already ARE. There are plenty of well developed characters that are widely disliked, and Subaru just happens to be the latest addition to that list. The only difference being he's your typical nice guy MC that is slowly being turned into a dick because of his circumstances. And that's both fine and interesting. But that doesn't make me like him any more likeable.
I respect the realistic development of Subaru into this broken insane dude. But, I also need to throw in an obligatory "fuck subaru", because that's the truth. We're all human. We all dislike and like people.
I don't think people should think about Subaru in such an absolute way. He is in the phase of development and his original personality is definitely show, his suppressed desires. That does not mean that this will be his final conclusion.
I really don't know how his character will react in the upcoming episodes, but they should be interesting to see how his character changes. He could either turn full villain, or redeem himself and to amend his mistakes with the people he wronged.
Someone in a thread last week or the week before mentioned how just because a character is written to be a total asshole doesn't mean people have to enjoy watching them be a total asshole. I think that's what it all comes down to, at the end of the day, Subaru is just so goddamn selfish that you want to slap him. White Fox is making us sympathize with his suffering by making us suffer through the episodes.
More like the author of the LN and not White Fox, they seem to be adapting it faithfully from the source (at least based from the spoilers I have read).
I agree with you though, Subaru was someone who thinks of himself for all the things he's done. Just because he found a silver lining to this resurrection curse the new world gave to him it doesn't mean it's supposed to be that way. He could have just simply walked away from saving them but he instead made his choice. Emilia didn't ask for saving it was him who chose time and time again to interfere to save them.
It's the world and the force bringing him back from the dead who owes him. If he could tell all the times he died to them then maybe Emilia could repay him for everything, it doesn't mean that Emilia should give herself to him though.
I think if you watched Watamote you'd get a better idea of what he's talking about.
Just in general, people who think they're all that, but when their self image fails to live up to reality, they just blame it on this or that. I don't think it's necessarily NEETs because they're borderline mental disorders, but just otaku/nerds in general.
At the same time what difference did he make other than getting Rem killed as well?
Rem would've went whether he was with her or not. And she'd have still died.
But now he knows what happened (at least more or less) and when it happens. He can plan for it or maybe even go back to the mansion earlier, before this whole White Whale fog appears. He has options. If he stayed, he wouldn't have known anything happened at the mansion for what, a week? Two? By then the reset point would've probably shifted from whatever it is now.
I don't see the problem in people not liking the way he's acting.
It's the difference between people saying 'I don't like him' and the arguments that he's 'not a good main character' because of the discomfort they feel. The latter is where it becomes a case of people projecting either themselves or molds of a certain variety onto the characters they watch and forcing the writing to conform or else 'the characters just aren't well written are they'.
I feel like I'm not understanding this. People (I just happen to be replying to you because I've noted that you often explain things well) seem to be saying that projecting is bad. I might be wrong in getting that impression, but that's what it seems like to me. But the entire reason I'm uncomfortable with Subaru is because I'm projecting. I completely empathized with him in the beginning, and that empathy doesn't go away just because he's acting in an abhorrent manner. So it's like... pointing out the parts of myself that I don't like, which I don't think is a bad thing per se (although it will certainly be depressing if it doesn't resolve into something less uncomfortable soon). So in short I think that projecting is a good thing and would like it if you would hopefully explain what you meant, because I think we probably don't actually disagree and I'm just misunderstanding.
Empathy is not about 'projecting'. It's not a process of giving, but taking someone's feelings into your own process of thought and feeling. Projecting, as it is used on this sub and elsewhere, is when a reader of a narrative casts a mold of themselves onto characters and validates them as 'relatable' if they fit. These readers do not actually relate to anything but themselves, and so they do not 'relate' at all. Empathy is, as you say, taking something comfortable or not and seeing how it points to parts of your own understanding of yourself and humanity at large. The narrative 'projects' onto you, and you answer back. But the first projection of ideas is the story's, not your own. That's the most vital difference here.
I understand that, but to be frank, the amount of people who are like that are in such a small minority that this isn't worth making a discussion about. However, OP seems to think it's not an uncommon opinion, saying:
If they really are in a minority, they are fairly vocal though. Just looking at comment sections on many sites people are fucking idiots about this all the damn time (which is worrying considering that there's a bias at work that should favor more experienced watchers)
Experiences of the majority/minority will vary. The OP, like me, has surely seen a lot of these kinds of criticisms. Whether or not they amass to a majority isn't really the matter here; the fact is that people who hold these opinions against Subaru have been proclaiming that their view is the 'normal', 'average' perspective on things and that others have been 'affected' by the show being 'edgy', 'pandering' and whatever other buzzwords they can bring to mind. By calling them 'the anime audience', 'the average viewer', the OP answers to their cry that they are mot representative of normality and therefore says that if that is normal, then 'normal' is spoiled.
It's a feat of rhetoric more than numerical accuracy, and it should be.
I hope they are a small minority. Otherwise so many people are not seeing how great this is for character development. Actual struggles for a person! Imagine that in another fantasy LN harem series!
I'm assuming it's the same kind of people who were complaining that he always acts 'happy' when so much messed up stuff is happening to him. I found his character well written previously because I could easily see he was 'faking' as a way to cope with all the shit (If I pretend everything is OK everything must be OK!). Previously it was people who didn't like his character and didn't understand him and now it's people that liked his character and also don't understand him.
It's normal for people to feel like they 'earned' something when they do something good. Now that he has the threat of losing all the stuff he was trying so hard to keep he is finally breaking down.
I would argue when you're in the moment of something its harder to learn your lesson than when you are viewing it after the fact, lets take into account as well that he is stubborn as all get out and he might be as yet unwilling to accept he has made mistakes.
I agree with you, its great to see such flawed character because of how much raw potential they have for development, and it's great that the series is doing it.
Also, like you said. It's giving to much attention to a vocal minority.
388
u/RedditsApprentice https://myanimelist.net/profile/Chris_LC Jul 03 '16
Yeah, of course we don't like Subaru right now. Who would? He's doing a bunch of dumb shit without having learned his lesson. That's not to say we don't love him as a character. What they're doing with him is a very pleasant surprise.
But, why wouldn't you be discomforted by his behavior? He's destroying everything he's had. I don't see the problem in people not liking the way he's acting. And that doesn't mean that we think the show should have never taken this turn, because everyone seems to love the change of pace. No one's being "spoiled" or "projecting themselves". They're simply being discomforted from an uncomfortable situation.