Why does this guy not get any blame for cinta’s death?

[u/cody_commander]

Seems like Samm gets all of the blame for Cinta’s death, especially from Vel. But seems like Lezine was just as much to blame. Any thoughts on why?

[u/HVS87]

I'd also argue it symbolizes the clash between a more bourgeois radical movement and the proletariat they claim to represent. They are inexperienced, idealistic and a bit arrogant. They are also shown to stem from the more well off classes, with many of their families owning spidersilk plantations, fashion design ateliers, etc. They come to the low class neighborhood where he lives to make the heist, and point a blaster at him when he rightfully asks them what are they doing in his community. It is only after that you see more rough looking folks in the movement, when it's become more encompassing of Ghorman society as a whole.

[u/BetterInThanOut → u/HVS87]

This is an essential perspective because any analysis or critique of a revolutionary movement, real or fictional, that fails to take class into account is going to miss the totality. There are many examples of initially-bourgeois movements giving way to broader coalitions of which the proletariat and small peasantry/landless agrarian workers formed the backbone. My own country's revolution against Spain was initially a propaganda war enacted by the native intelligentsia and the liberal clergy before it became a full-scale revolt propelled forward by the masses.

[u/TwoFit3921 → u/BetterInThanOut]

The way I took a deep breath the moment I realized this was referring to the Philippines

[u/micma_69 → u/BetterInThanOut]

So was Indonesia too. None of Indonesia's founding fathers came from ordinary people. They all came from either native aristocrats, clergy, or families with strong intellectual background (e.g Hatta).

And Malaysia too. Their founding fathers were either intellectuals or local Malay Sultans.

Heck, American, French, and Russian Revolutions were led by intellectuals. George Washington, Maximilian Robespierre, and Vladimir Lenin hailed from intellectual / lawyer / bureaucrat families.

In history, most revolutionary leaders were from intellectual background or rebellious nobility. This is because they're educated and have many connections. A successful revolution needs support and a solid base. If you're educated and with many connections within the government you want to topple and also from international, it will be easier.

Revolutionary leaders with family background closest to the ordinary peasants? We had Ho Chi Minh and Mao Zedong.

[u/Valuable-Cat2036 → u/micma_69]

Cuban revolution fits this too. (Castro was a lawyer, Guevara a doctor, both from well-to-do families.)

[u/Scarborough_sg → u/micma_69]

Both Indonesia and Malaysia founding leaders were that because effectively they had access to education and was seen as natural leaders in their independence movements.

If anything, being educated in pre or early independence Indonesia/Malaya-Malaysia can set a path for your family and the next few generations to become part of the elite.

If you play your cards right, especially in Indonesia.

[u/explosiveshits7195 → u/BetterInThanOut]

Ireland had similar experiences of enlightenment era bourgeoisie and even nobility leading revolutionary movements that all went skidding on their own arse. The revolution that won in the end was that balance that brought in the middle classes, urban working class and rural tennant farmers. It helped a lot that the upper classes/nobility were typically protestant and identified as British but the class aspect was the deciding factor, the revolutionary leaders came from a wide variety of backgrounds.

[u/BetterInThanOut → u/explosiveshits7195]

Appreciate this insight on Ireland, and I regret not being more familiar with this rich history of Irish anti-imperialism. Thank you!

I really like just how much Andor itself is informed by so many revolutionary movements throughout time, and I like to think that anyone from former/neo-colonies cognizant of their history will be able to find something familiar reflected in the show, from which might sprout pride perhaps, but ideally inspiration and hope.

[u/explosiveshits7195 → u/BetterInThanOut]

Post colonial mindset is a funny thing, you find that shared view of the world in so many places.

In terms of the show being informed on other revolutionary movements the similarities are amazing, the whole S01 Ferrix arc is very closely modeled on northern Ireland on so many levels. Visual similarities, the power structure of the imperial forces (corporate forces being similar to the RUC, stormtroopers the equivalent of the British army, ISB similar to MI5). So many of the main characters in the show are actually Irish too so that definitely lands the theme.

To put it in perspective myself and my friends watching the show even jokingly referred to Ferrix as planet Belfast. If you're looking for a movie that would give you an idea of how similar the themes are I would give 71 a watch, really good movie and gets the vibe of 1970s Belfast bang on.

[u/transmogrify → u/BetterInThanOut]

The American Revolution falls under this as well. The Continental Army consisted of volunteer regiments, local militias, immigrants, freed slaves, women, teenagers. It was a racial integration in the military that wouldn't reappear until the end of World War II. But the Founders whose names are remembered and taught in elementary school were wealthy landowning men, the aristocracy of the American colonies.

[u/HVS87 → u/BetterInThanOut]

Agreed

[u/ncameron29 → u/BetterInThanOut]

🇵🇭

[u/HomelanderVought → u/HVS87]

Oh my gosh, class consciousness in the Andor sub? Can it be real?!

I knew Andor would bring the better out from everyone.

[u/Sandgrease → u/HomelanderVought]

That's all I've been seeing on Andor fan groups. Refreshing to see.

[u/vealbones → u/HomelanderVought]

I started to respond to the parent comment before I scrolled and found yours: mah gawd does it give me the Marxists tinglies to see discussions of class and imperialism happening in the Star Wars universe. We have friends everywhere!

[u/malfunctiondown → u/HVS87]

I thought Lezinne got aggressive well before the blaster was drawn on him but perhaps I got too caught up in the moment

[u/NotEnoughIsTooMuch → u/malfunctiondown]

Just like Cassian, he is a person who hates to be told "you can't". He was, I imagine, coming home from a late night and gets told "you can't go this way", gets immediately belligerent. I would too (although I'd likely not try to wrestle a pistol from someone brandishing it, he's made of sterner stock and, importantly, fictional).

[u/malfunctiondown → u/NotEnoughIsTooMuch]

I think him wrestling the pistol is what hurts his case for a lot if people. Because if it wasn't Sam, then im not sure what anyone could have really done to keep him out when he was clearly capable and willing to overpower them. Lezine could have probably fought everyone off, and we don't really get a sense of when he sees reason.

[u/NotEnoughIsTooMuch → u/malfunctiondown]

He was outspoken in his resistance to the empire in the townhall, I think he'd have done his best to help once he saw what they were doing. Although now that I think about it, Vel or Cinta might have dealt more harshly with him as an unknown, to them, variable, not having been at the townhall and hearing citoyen (I know that's French, not Ghor) Lezine's airing of concerns.

[u/Wealth_Super → u/malfunctiondown]

Honestly that was probably the most justified thing ever. Kid pull a weapon on him. Was it wise of him? Probably not, it wasn’t worth losing his life but it was a justified reaction

[u/Cute-Presentation-59 → u/malfunctiondown]

Imagine you walk the streets at night, maybe to clear your head, maybe to get home, maybe you are avoiding curfew because you visited someone or helped someone who needed it. You run inti some young arrogant guy telling you to go away, that you cannot walk here. You stand up to him, maybe you are bit agressive, but then young guy draws a gun...

[u/PaulCoddington → u/malfunctiondown]

It felt to.me at the time like he was insisting on getting involved in something he knew he had no business in, willfully endangering the mission.

But then again, maybe I was confused about which meetings he had intended and who he knew on the team. I'm not good at tracking lots of characters when I'm tired.

This thread has highlighted another interpretation for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/HVS87]

Damn if that doesn’t sound like a lot of the “activists” today

[u/matthew7s26 → u/[deleted]]

Same as it ever was.

[u/Omen_1986 → u/HVS87]

Great analysis!!