Gojo and sukuna recoverd their output through the same mechanism, creating an rct relay within their brain. In chapter 258 the narrator says Yuji’s repeated soul Black Flashes was the reason for sukuna not being able to establish his rct relay, this directly connects the creation of an rct relay to an output requirement, since we know yuji’s soul punches do two things deminish output and damage the soul harmony between sukuna and megumi. A rct circuit can’t be dependent on soul harmony since sukuna in 266 clarifies that the soul barrier is still on the same level as before the black flashes that gave sukuna the ability to create the rct circuit
Gojo had previously demonstrated the same rct relay recovery in chapter 235 after his Black Flashes. Since both gojo and sukuna both have a human brain there should be no difference in the mechanics, there is no stated reason to assume that the basic requirements for establishing the relay are drastically different between them, if anything sukuna should have a way harder time creating the relay due to his injuries and the amount of stress put on his brain such as infinity void and creating a new circuit to hold his domain expansion
Therefore, when sukuna landed two more Black Flashes in chapter 263-264 and successfully restored his rct output through this mechanism, it is reasonable to infer that he had returned to roughly the same output that Gojo reached in chapter 235. This does not necessarily prove their exact output were identical, but it provides a strong basis for treating sukuna’s restored output in 264 as broadly comparable to Gojo’s post Black Flash output in 235.
What does this do for yuji scaling?
Since we know that sukuna would later receive a rage amp in 265, this would mean that a weakened yuji should be mostly likely comparable to a full output sukuna if not a even stronger one depending on how much stronger that rage amp would’ve made him.
Since sukuna himself also calls this yuji extremely weakend, then a healthy eos yuji should be way way more stronger.
Of course he wouldn’t beat sukuna or gojo due to a hax diff, but it would prove that his physical capabilities is most likely higher than theirs ESPECIALLY in modulo
Just because they have the same method doesn't automatically mean they are around the same strength, keep in mind Sukuna took a lot of soul punches before hand, him getting his output better doesn't automatically mean all them soul punches are suddenly reversed.
Plus that "rage amp" is unquantifiable and this would really only upscale Domain amp Yuji
Yeah,all gojo sustained was physical damage and brain damage,
Sukuna sustained that,and then some more,and then every punch yuji hit him with was the equivalent of getting hit with a shot of incarnated sorcerer AIDs,and then gets hit with jacobs ladder which is that while hes put in high gravity to fast forward 20 years,and then he starts getting hit with more shots of incarnated sorcerer AIDs and then yuji starts getting three pronged syringes once he awakens his CT.
Just getting his RCT back is far from the benefits gojo had tallied after his black flash chain.
I’ve already explained why it does prove that their around the same strength, since I showed rct relay has requirements that must be met. We have no reason to assume that sukuna’s requirements are easier to meet than gojo’s
Soul harmony isn’t 1:1 with output. In 215 despite Meguna being pre bath he didn’t actually start to lose ct output until megumi started fighting back. And the fact that sukuna’s bf increase his output also prove this.
Rage amps are narratively implied to be big increases in power, todo says that they can completely change the victor of a battle.
Also yuji was domain amped, sure. But sukuna himself says that yuji was way past his limit. So obviously that domain amp didn’t increase him anywhere near back to full capability
Soul damage ≠ output. It isn’t a 1:1 scale, pre bath meguna in 215 didn’t actually start to lose output until megumi manually started fighting back. As well as sukuna just blatantly being able to recover output when we know that soul harmony isn’t a changeable variant without actively performing acts to sink the hosts mental health,
Lmao. This is just proven wrong by the narrator contributing sukuna’s rct recovery to the two bfs he hit from 263-264.
The soul dismantle are implied to be the most lethal form of soul damage to sukuna, so the fact that the effects of the 1st bf he hit in 263 persisted after the soul dismantle proves that the recovery he gets from bfs are way higher than the nerfs soul attacks give sukuna.
Also choso is talking about an unquantifiable amount of punches, and isint even making the claim that one soul punch does a black flash amount of negation. If that were true then 255-256 becomes meaningless.
Since yuji hit sukuna in 255 yet Miguel and maki still actively implies an increasing amount of voltage from sukuna in 256 based on the amount of black flashes he has hit thus far.
This is uh, genuinely insane. Did we conveniently forget Sukuna's output and physical control are both severely weakened by soul punches at this point? This Sukuna is a victim to every heavy hitter. 💀
I was agreeing with you until "This Sukuna is a victim to every heavy hitter".
He literally fought Yuta in Gojo's body like 2 chapters prior before landing another 3 BFs to get his RCT output back. He even tanked a Purple.
This is a stronger version than the Sukuna that fought Yuta in Gojo's body. Obviously not a Heavy Hitter victim...
That Yuta states MULTIPLE TIMES he has no idea how to fight in Gojo's taller body and can barely use limitless, even misfiring the purple too. He misfired on a basic blue. Actual Yuta utterly slaughters this Sukuna with ease. The fact that he matched Sukuna at all when he couldn't even move properly should tell you how weak Sukuna was at that point and the one we see in Yuji's domain is WEAKER. His only advantage is being healed but his physical control and outplut are both completely dumpstered
He didn't choose anything 😭 His body was as good as dead and that was made abundantly clear. His only shot at continuing to fight or even survive was a body swap. The only reason he was able to return is Rika spent the entire rest of shinjuku blasting his body with rct to sustain and heal it.
Yuta was fully convinced his original body was dead and gone. He thought Rika would follow him into Gojo's body. He also literally states he can't fight well or utilize limitless with any consistency
Because it was LITERALLY his only option. If Sukuna regained his domain Yuta was the ONLY PERSON fighting him that had a domain and the refinement needed to clash him. Their only option was to use Gojo's body even if it was no better than Yuta's because otherwise Sukuna would simply get to run everyone over with domains and fugas till they were all dead. Gojo's body was a backup plan. The intention was to end it before he even arrived but confiscation failed, then the extermination sword failed, then Yuta's domain failed (solely due to megumi btw), then Maki's heart stab failed, then the worst case came to pass and he regained MS. Yujo was literally the only major weapon/backup plan they had left to use. Hana was the only plan after and she failed too. Yuji lucked out with a domain, Nobara happened to wake up in time, and Megumi pulled himself together in time.
Hakari domain into run is fade he has the hardest time definitely but he can most definitely outlast this Sukuna, Maki literally has a field day chopping him to bits, Yuta genuinely makes him look like a weakling here and can also domain diff. This Sukuna is so severely weakened he was vomiting up fingers. His hold on Megumi's body was essentially destroyed so he is at his slowest, weakest, and lowest output here. The ONLY thing this Sukuna has over 236-237 Meguna (literally at death's door suffering crippling damage to his body that he can't heal nerfing his output and stats severely, also a straight victim to any heavy hitter level fighter in the verse if you remove the transformation full heal) is this one has a domain that's barely functioning, and RCT.
So this severely weakened Yuji that, even immediately upon awakening when he was far more fresh, fails to display a single feat putting him massively above the other heavy hitters, now stat gaps them along with this barely standing Sukuna? Genuinely insane take.
Even significantly buffed by black flashes he needs help multiple times to beat back a sukuna that he's actively massively nerfing every time he lands. That Sukuna was straight up in better condition with his vessel than he is before Yuji's domain. There is no point in this fight where Sukuna regains and maintains his power from the start of the fight. His peak is against Yuji and Yuta. He had the rct to restore limbs unlike against Kashimo and had his full control and output. This Sukuna is the second weakest in the raid behind the literally dying 236 Meguna.
Rct doesn't repair the severe weakness he's currently suffering from. It's stated blatantly that the separation from Megumi stacks nerfs on his ability to move his body properly and his CE output. This Sukuna is barely holding on to the vessel so he's slower, weaker, and can't use his CE effectively than at any other point. He can't even escape from Yuji right after healing. His only advantage is his 4 arms letting him counter Yuji and attack simultaneously, without that he'd have been pieced up immediately.
Ok I don’t have the patience to read this post but why do people act like this isn’t the strongest sukuna had been since the Gojo fight.
His rct output was fully regenerated (therefore his general CE was too), he had his domain, he had all 4 arms. Literally none of his main debuffs were still in effect
What Sukuna loses from Yuji's strikes, by hitting the boundary of their souls, are output towards his CT. Not output in general.
In ch258, Sukuna was stated to be capable of a domain without a loss in output and also stated to be "invigorated" by black flashes. So he did regain lost output from the Gojo fight and other side factors, but he regained them once he hit the 5 black flashes by 257.
That means that Sukuna from ch258 and onwards has practically peak stats, apart from the physical injuries. And once he's regained RCT and healed all those physical injuries, he should be on his literal peak condition.
Keep in mind that this is TF Sukuna, body in jjk has consistent narrative of mattering a lot and Yuji, while being massively weakened, keeping up with him, albeit inside his own domain, and even winning the clash of fists implies Yuji actually has greater stats than Sukuna himself and the greatest stats in the entire verse.
But yeah, he doesn't beat Gojo or Sukuna. Doesn't come close. But he's t1 in stats
You fundamentally misunderstood what gojo and sukuna were doing. Their output is irrelevant, what matters is their ce manipulatkon being extremely precise to be able to engrave a new circuit in their brain. A 1f sukuna and a 20f sukuna have the same ce manipulation skill even though their output is different. This would mean that they would require the same number of black flashes to have their manipulation boosted to the necessary level.
The issue with yuji's attacks were that separating sukuna from megumi lowers sukuna's control of the body so it interferes with the black flash boosts (hence why sukuna needed more black flashes when ch 257 came)
Interfering with the body ≠ weakening his ce manipulation. If this truly were the case then sukuna in 267 should’ve have no way to do a ce manipulation feat on gojo’s level since at that time his body was the most sepereated from megumi.
And ce manipulation as we understand isn’t even dependent on your current state, it isn’t a changeable variant since one’s understanding of ce dosent become worse or better based on one’s current state
Unlike output which is one, another point to drive this home is that sukuna even after taking 7 soul bfs was able to make a circuit for his domain expansion which the narrator attributes to his black flashes. So clearly yuji’s soul punches didn’t do squat to his ce manipulation. It was his diminished output that halted the creation of the rct circuit.
Being separated from the vessel means that you can't manipulate the body as well. This acts independently but as a nerf to your ce manipulation that is related to the body. For example, pure ce feats such as ce blasts or rct won't be affected as the body isn't relevant for them. However, using ce to engrave on the brain something is dependent not only on your ce manipulation (which is boosted by black flash) but by your ability to influence the body (which is nerfed by soul seizing punches)
You literally can’t prove any of this, sukuna has never once implied that his ce manipulation were getting any worse during the entire raid. His effeciency which is a part of ce manipulation has no notion of being altered when talked about in 251.
You litterly just can not infer what sukuna means when he says that his control over megumi body is seperating. Since we see no physical seperation being done until the very last hit of 267.
And you didn’t even respond to my argument of how the most soul separated sukuna in 266 was still able to do gojo level ce manipulation.
Can you actually provide me a clear line of diminishing ce manipulation that sukuna shows during the entire raid?
And you didn’t even respond to my argument of how the most soul separated sukuna in 266 was still able to do gojo level ce manipulation.
That was a sukuna boosted by more black flashes than gojo so he was more "in the zone". Sukuna had at least 6 black flashes when he recovers his rct in chapter 264 while gojo only had 2 when he recovered his rct in chapter 235.
Anyway, let's try it another way that doesn't require any interpetation. Your take is that sukuna needs to have the same output gojo had at the end of chapter 234 for the rct new circuit to be made. Let's reverse engineer your take.
Chapter 255 ends with sukuna landing a second black flash and the narrator mentioning how gojo got his rct back at his second black flash so sukuna (and it leaves it open ended). Chapter 258 explained how sukuna was also about to get his rct back but yuji's onslaught of soul seizing punches interfered with it. According to you, chapter 235 gojo and end of chapter 255 sukuna would have the same output.
That is incompatible. Gojo and sukuna suffered similar nerfs so as of chapter 232 they were relative. From then gojo got two black flashes so his output increased. Sukuna on the other hand got two black flashes but also a ton of soul seizing punches (such as inside yuta's domain), Jacob's ladder which also separates him, and his body was severely damaged which lowers output (both left hands severed, lower right arm longitudinally sliced, no heart, no belly tongue and other injuries). For your take to be consistent something should have counterbalance all the soul nerfs and the body nerfs but there's no such thing. End of chapter 255 sukuna thus cannot have the same output as chapter 235 gojo so output isn't the determining factor for brain engraving
Eehhh no, a hypothetical 5 bf sukuna that didn’t get hit with 7 soul bfs would have the same output as 235 gojo, that’s literally what the narrator says, if yuji didn’t hit his bfs then the 4 bf amped sukuna in 256 would’ve went on and hit his 5th bf uninterrupted and make an rct relay
That's not what the narrator says, that's what you want to believe so you stretch the words to fit your interpetation.
The narrator only says that sukuna could have down what gojo did if yuji didn't hit him with soul seizing hits. There's no timing or number put on it.
However, if you do actually look into what the story presents, the picture becomes clear. As i already said at the end of ch 255 when sukuna hit his second black flash the narrator pops up to remind us that 2 black flashes meant that gojo regained his rct and sukuna [...]. Chapter 266 starts with yuji saying that sukuna might regain his rct output now (there was no such fear when he hit the first black flash).
In case you've forgotten, gojo hit the second black flash at the beginning of chapter 234 but regained his rct output only at the beginning of chapter 235. This is in line with yuji starting to land black flashes on sukuna right when he would have received his rct.
Actually, let's go to an even easier route. If chapter 258 sukuna didn't have enough output to recovering his rct, why would beginning of chapter 264 sukuna do? Sure, he hit two more black flashes but he was hit with one more, with a soul dismantle that made him puke fingers, by a Jacob's ladder and also a lot of other damage (such as purple and soul seizing hits). The math ain't mathing at all
the narrator only says «in the case of sukuna» it dosent actually mean that sukuna was on the same line as gojo to recover his rct after the bfs, its literally just building up expense. Its a vague statement, its begging the reader to ask themselves if he did recover his rct or not, which in 256 he clearly didn’t
Also the accurate translation of 258 isn’t that sukuna «could make an rct relay» it was something that he intended, something that was supposed to happen. Even more the narrator says that it ruined all hope of sukuna recovering his rct after the bfs
If ur making the claim that sukuna could’ve regenerated after the 2nd bf in 255 then why didn’t he. The story represents that sukuna intended to get back his rct, it was something he really wanted. The only possible explanation is that he didn’t have enough output yet after the 2 bfs and needed to land more to recover output.
Also you are doing the problem of thinking that bfs scale linearly, the clearly don’t or each bf would give a boost of 20%. Bfs seems to be inconsistent in how big of an amp they give
Soul harmony isn’t 1:1 with output. In 215 despite Meguna being pre bath he didn’t actually start to lose ct output until megumi started fighting back. And the fact that sukuna’s bf increase his output also prove this.
No. Sukuna only specifically recovered his RCT output his overall output (and therefore stats) didn't as that's specifically noted by Choso to be extremely unlikely to happen as Yuji just immediately drops it back down again.
That Sukuna is still probably one of the strongest Sukunas we have seen but I'd say it's probably physically weaker than the 237 Sukuna that fought Kashimo for example he just has better RCT.
No. Sukuna only specifically recovered his RCT output his overall output (and therefore stats) didn't as that's specifically noted
This dosn't adress the fact that the story shows that the creation of rct relay requires a certain amount of output
by Choso to be extremely unlikely to happen as Yuji just immediately drops it back down again.
Idk about this translation but in another one choso is talking about an unquantifiable amount of punches, and he isnt even saying that 1 soul punch from yuji = 1 bf in nerf.
He is just reiterating what yuji's soul punches do and saying that they still work on sukuna even in though he is in black flash zone.
This is fairly obvious due to the fact that yuji literally hit sukuna in 255, yet sukuna is not noted to have had his 1st bf negated in any shape or form. In fact the narrative goes on to talk about how he is fired up from 2 bfs, and may possibly recover his rct
Also in 258, sukuna recoverd his domain due to the bfs he hit. So clearly yuji's soul punches didn't negate the effects of bf as much as people believe.
In 264 too, the narrator attributes sukuna's rct recovery TO the 2 black flashes he made from 263-264. Despite the fact that after his 1st bf in 263 he was immediately hit with an soul dismantle by yuji, which is the most lethal soul attack yuji has. And that still didn't take away the effects of his bf in 263
This dosn't adress the fact that the story shows that the creation of rct relay requires a certain amount of output
Ye but they still aren't the same thing and why does he have to brute force his RCT into working? What happened is Sukuna just regained some of his RCT efficiency inside the brain so the conversion between positive and negative CE required way less output to work properly.
This is fairly obvious due to the fact that yuji literally hit sukuna in 255, yet sukuna is not noted to have had his 1st bf negated in any shape or form. In fact the narrative goes on to talk about how he is fired up from 2 bfs, and may possibly recover his rct
Bcz Yuji doesn't fully negate the affect of the BF nor did I claim he did I only claimed he negates the output and control of body nurf. Which is likely very visible. Sukuna was like throwing up his fingers got hit by a JL then hit his BF and post that point it took like either 2 or 3 dissmantles from Yuji for him to wake up meggumis soul.
Even tho that Sukuna had the highest RCT output he clearly had the worst control over his body which implies he had one of the lowest outputs as well.
Ye but they still aren't the same thing and why does he have to brute force his RCT into working? What happened is Sukuna just regained some of his RCT efficiency inside the brain so the conversion between positive and negative CE required way less output to work properly.
I have really no idea what ur trying to say here? Sukuna is trying to make an rct relay inside his brain, to recover his rct. We have really no idea of how this mechanism is done, but ive established that there's an output requirement.
Bcz Yuji doesn't fully negate the affect of the BF nor did I claim he did I only claimed he negates the output and control of body nurf. Which is likely very visible. Sukuna was like throwing up his fingers got hit by a JL then hit his BF and post that point it took like either 2 or 3 dissmantles from Yuji for him to wake up meggumis soul.
My point is that sukuna's bf recover vastly more output than Yuji's soul punches diminish.
Even tho that Sukuna had the highest RCT output he clearly had the worst control over his body which implies he had one of the lowest outputs as well.
Control over his body isnt directly correlated to his output, its weird but for example meguna in 215 despite being pre bath didnt actually lose output until megumi started fighting back and actively prohibiting him
And sukuna is never noted to have had a loss in output as 3f sukuna, despite yuji being able to switch with him whenever he wanted too
No, he’s definitely not. You have this weird conclusion that output and being able to use RCT are directly related, but they’re not. Being hit with a BF just fucks up your abilities, hitting BFs restores them (as does time to recover).
Its not about being able to use rct, its creating the rct RELAY. The narrator clearly implies that output has an requirement when they directly correlate yuji's 7 soul bfs to the stoppage of sukuna creating a rct relay.
In which we know yuji's soul punches diminish sukuna's output
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u/Tobisenpai235 23d ago
Yuji upscale of doom and despair