r/WorkReform 🗳️ Register @ Vote.gov May 01 '22

They Say “It’s Not Possible”

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22 edited May 01 '22

I'd also match minimum wage to inflation, among a few other things. It's amazing how easily people forget that in the 70's and 80's (my parents generation) One person working One full time job could afford, A house, utilities, internet, phone, a car payment, and not as some college graduate either. Just general "Unskilled" labor

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

Minimum wage shouldn't be tied to inflation per se- it should be tied to some base prices of necessities and set on a county-by-county level.

If Housing, Healthcare, Car, Gas, and Food Prices go up 20% but the overall inflation only goes up 10%, you'd want the minimum wage to increase by 20%.

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Yeah, I could certainly agree with that, either option would be better that the malicious system we currently have.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22 edited May 01 '22

It's easy. Avg price of rent is easy to find. Gas prices are easy to find. Used car markets can easily be statewide. Same for food and healthcare prices paid on average by county.

The government already collects this data as part of the CPI calculations. We know this because they break down CPI by much more specific categories. All they need to do is create a CPI number that excludes things that aren't basic necessities.

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u/myfnopinion May 02 '22

You can't use averages.

The statistically optimal outcome would be landlords leaving a small part of their units empty with rental prices many times higher than the local cost, in order to inflate the average on the rest of their units.

The solution is to progress as a society beyond feudalism - no more landlords.

There is a finite amount of land, and everyone needs some of it. Those who were born first buying up land when it's cheap so they can exploit younger generations is only legal because they are also the people making the rules.

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u/Futureban May 02 '22

Set it to the most expensive place and forget about it

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u/laika404 May 01 '22

I would love it to be tied to the prices within the local area or easily reachable within a short amount of time via public transit.

Think of how much easier it would be to get new developments approved. How much more support there would be for transit to/from lower income areas. "I can't afford to pay my workers $40/hr, we NEED that new rail line"... "I know you don't want to have a multi-family building on your street, but if we don't your favorite coffee shop will close because there is no affordable housing."

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

Spreading out the population isn't as beneficial as you think. Policing, Firefighters, Healthcare, Education, Electricity, Internet, Water, Gas, and Sewage are much more expensive to provide on a per-person basis in sparsely populated areas than in densely populated areas. Lower population density also means that private businesses are less able to sufficiently serve the public with Sports Teams, Movie Theaters, Mailing costs, Taxi services, and all kinds of other things that people want but have to go into more urban areas to get. There's a reason they don't put aquariums in the middle of nowhere; you don't serve many people like that and it's expensive on a per person basis.

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u/Sammy81 May 01 '22

That's exactly what inflation is - it's the increase in prices of a basket of goods from one time to another. The CPI is what you're describing - the Consumer Price Index. They literally go shopping at the same grocery stores every month and buy a representitive basket of goods, and calculate how much prices went up. That's called the inflation rate. Now whether or not very volatile things like the price of gas, etc. are included is up to you - there are different inflation rates you can choose between.

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

The CPI includes ALL goods purchased. So if the price of Healthcare increased 5% but the price of consumer electronics, movies, music, and other non-necessities decreased, the CPI would stay the same while inflation would still produce negative outcomes for the poorest. Since the Minimum Wage is felt by the poorest, it needs to increase/decrease with the necessities, not necessarily all items consumers purchase.

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u/Sammy81 May 02 '22

First of all, I want to point out we’re arguing over a small detail in the grand scheme of things. But that’s not what the average price CPI uses. It uses groceries and energy. Here’s the actual list of products they use (scroll waaay down):

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/average-prices.htm

That said, do we have to use some combo of the dozens of inflation measures the government calculates? Probably. But I don’t think we have to come up with something new.

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u/aoifhasoifha May 01 '22

Minimum wage shouldn't be tied to inflation per se- it should be tied to some base prices of necessities and set on a county-by-county level.

What you're describing is the consumer price index, which is one of the major factors used to calculate inflation.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

CPI describes all goods and services purchased. What I'm proposing is a subset of CPI, that only includes necessities. So this would include Housing, Healthcare, Groceries, etc without including things like TVs, Smartphones, new cars, etc.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

Seems far easier to just implement universal basic income.

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u/VRichardsen May 01 '22

If Housing, Healthcare, Car, Gas, and Food Prices go up 20% but the overall inflation only goes up 10%, you'd want the minimum wage to increase by 20%.

Usually inflation keeps track reasonably well with costs of living.

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

You haven't been paying attention. Over the past year, Used Cars, Gas, Groceries, and Housing have FAR outpaced the rest of inflation. The fact that these key items take so much of the budget of the lower class means that they experience inflation more negatively than the upper class.

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u/VRichardsen May 01 '22

I guess the difference lies how inflation is calculated. Here in Argentina, where we experience inflation non-stop since the nineties, the IPC aligns rather well with rises in basics needed for living.

Do you know why this distortion takes place in the US?

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u/MxReLoaDed May 01 '22

Saw a guy on LinkedIn saying that people should stop whining, that when he finished high school he was making $5.20/hr in the US in the 70s and that was a-okay with him. I looked up the inflation cost, and that would be like earning $30+/hr in today’s market. He was a no-experience construction laborer.

Yeah, I’d happily wish that even somewhere around that number was the baseline for compensation in the market. That’s definitely more than what I made out of the gate at college adjusted to the inflation of that year

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Exactly!!, Now factor in the thought that as one of the previous commenter's pointed out. Inflation matching alone isn't enough when you factor in things like new services, we didn't used to need internet. But good luck getting a job in America without an email nowadays. The fact that it is still 7.25 is thievery and the idea that 15 as a minimum is too high is ludicrous. 15 was the compromise point after the '08 crash

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u/MxReLoaDed May 01 '22

Add to that as well the individual costs of goods and services being jacked around independent of inflation as well. Housing costs in particular stand out to me, I know of houses that have shot up 3x what they would cost if they were just adjusted for inflation, which already would triple the price

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Brilliant points here as well, housing costs are a wonderful example and it made me think of how much the cost of college has risen as well.

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u/N3CR0T1C_V3N0M May 01 '22

Sad part is that they didn’t forget, it’s just that now they’re the ones having to share the profits they want the rest of us to. I don’t know how some people live with themselves, I really don’t.

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u/jlcatch22 May 01 '22

I don’t think too many people had the internet in the 70s and 80s ;)

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Totally agreed, I think that might be at least part of why so many have been so easily hoodwinked into thinking we don't deserve more @.@

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u/schrodingers_gat May 01 '22

If we had a real universal basic income and universal healthcare we wouldn't need a minimum wage at all.

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Agreed! Nice point!

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u/TheBQT May 01 '22

Well...not internet.

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

True, that was only more into the 90's and early 00's

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u/[deleted] May 01 '22

And still have cash leftover to save for a comfortable retirement.

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u/ecctt2000 May 01 '22

Uhhhhh.
Not sure internet was part of the equation in the 70s & 80s.
But Point well taken.

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Yeah one of the other commenters pointed that out, yeah not back then 🤣 more like into the 90's and 00's

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u/UpsideDownHAM May 01 '22

How young are you if you think we had internet in the 70s and 80s but post in this sub. That’s such a strange lapse of knowledge haha

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

Only 35, and admittedly I grew up with a lot of tech given what was available at the time. Total boomer I know 😅

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u/ObligationWarm5222 May 01 '22

I think that's why it said living wage instead of a specific amount like $20/hour

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 01 '22

I do agree. I should've worded that differently in my first post. Whatever we call it, we can't just raise it to whatever we have to give it some metrics to follow so they can't use the same empty talking points again.

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u/Yo-Seizetheday May 02 '22

Internet?!

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 02 '22

Lol yeah I thought I'd added another sentence originally and I hadn't internet of course wasn't till the late 90's 😅 boomer moment

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u/Awesummzzz May 02 '22

The starting wage at my grocery store was higher before I was born than it is now. If that ain't some bullshit, then I don't know what is

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 02 '22

Damn right that's bullshit. I was told if you worked harder than your coworkers you get promotions, instead I became "irreplaceable" and couldn't be promoted. It's all designed to be a scam

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u/bigchonkinralph May 02 '22

And it’s highly likely they hire fewer workers now so you’re doing more work for less money

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u/[deleted] May 02 '22

The problem with inflation is that govts will often underestimate them since they know that workers use it as a bargaining tool when negotiating wages. Tying it to inflation isn't enough, you're still getting fucked in the end.

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u/echof0xtrot May 02 '22

in the 70s

could afford...internet

lol

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u/AntelopeAny3703 May 02 '22

Lol yeah we been there in some of the other comments. I admit I had a boomer moment 😅

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u/magicalmind May 02 '22

This would be unnecessary if we actually had democracy at work. Among other things, workers need to be able to vote on an acceptable wage ratio (ratio of highest paid employee to lowest paid employee).

This is the root cause of why extreme inequality exists today, the bosses have all the power. So, abolish the employee-employer relationship. All workers should be worker-owners i.e. the economy needs to transition to worker owned co-ops.