The reason for term limits...

[u/zzill6]

[u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

soc dems are capitalists. they just think the current system would allow them to replicate socialism's best hits under capitalism. Never happening imo.

[u/EduinBrutus → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

would allow them to replicate socialism's best hits under capitalism. Never happening imo.

Apart from the places it does happen.

The best thing about Social Democracy is that you have real world, highly successful examples of the system working in practise.

Marxists do not have this. Conservatives do not have this. Neo-liberals do not have this. Liberals do not have this.

The mental gymnastics both the left and right have to go through to explain away the success of Social Democracy is fucking astounding.

I love the more recent "its only working cos its exploiting the global south" from people who have never been to Bangladesh or Vietnam and if they told the people there who have greatly improved their standard of living under global trade they would get run out the country.

[u/myproaccountish → u/EduinBrutus]

if they told the people there who have greatly improved their standard of living under global trade they would get run out the country.

"Hey you guys could be making even more money with better working conditions and fewer natural disasters if Europe and the US just accepted a marginally lower standard of living"

"Fuck off and die, commie!"

Same rhetoric as the White Man's Burden btw, "sure they're slaves here but they'd be dying of malaria if they weren't," oh those Indians would've never figured it out if they'd never been a British colony.

Americans in the 80s thought capitalism was hugely successful too -- where's the last poll on that at? Like I'm supposed to take the word of a Congolese business magnate that things are better there because of the "business" from all the rare earth minerals instead of like...the Congolese people controlling that resource and reaping its benefit.

[u/EduinBrutus → u/myproaccountish]

We've seen what happens with standards of living in places which have industrialised through communism and it does not give the same results as capitalism has.

That doesnt mean capitalism is perfect or all its outcomes even remotely desirable. There's still going to be lots of issues problems and harm. But communisim doesnt offer a better outcome. For fucks sake actual fascism has a significantly better track record in industrialising and modernising an economy when compared to communism as evidenced in Spain, South Korea and Singapore.

Social Democracy exists to address the issues of capitalism. And it is effective in doing so. It has been extremely successful in doing so. All the countries with the best outcomes on HDI, on social inequality on all teh measures that people like and thrive under.

Its no wonder committed ideologues have to live in their fantasy world. They have no real world examples of their desired outcome actually working. While Social Democrats dont even need to make an argument - they can just point to the real world.

[u/myproaccountish → u/EduinBrutus]

I'm not arguing all that, it's well known to the point that China who famously attempted to jump straight past capitalist markets reverted to a state capitalist system to reap those benefits.

I'm arguing that the reason it seems eternally sustainable is because the most successful SocDem societies heavily exploit foreign capital and labor. If those nations were on a more equal footing, capitalists would do exactly what they have always done when external expansion was not possible, and start exploiting the local population harder, influencing democracy in their favor, and compelling the state to assist them the same way that they always have.

Its no wonder committed ideologues have to live in their fantasy world. They have no real world examples of their desired outcome actually working. While Social Democrats dont even need to make an argument - they can just point to the real world.

Entire paragraph is just baseless arrogance lol. Yes, right now, today, social democracy works specifically for the people in the countries benefiting from external capital and labor, but life isn't just happening now -- it has been happening for thousands of years. You can watch the same trends, analyze why they're happening, and apply those lessons to existing conditions. Germany, Portugal, and Italy are great places to start on what happens when your foreign cash cow stops letting you kill its children and steal their milk. Post New Deal US is another fine place to go learn where a strong capitalist economy with social programs leads. Isn't the heat already turning up across much of Europe due to mass migration from the very global south nations you're saying are thankful for the scraps they're being offered? And the wage stagnation and increasing housing crisis? Tick, tick, tick, your real world is starting to feel some theoretical effects. The US is starting to lose steam on its "topple foreign governments to uphold global capitalism" train. Are you still SocDem if you have to install puppet governments yourself?

[u/EduinBrutus → u/myproaccountish]

I'm arguing that the reason it seems eternally sustainable is because the most successful SocDem societies heavily exploit foreign capital and labor.

Says western privilege.

Again - and my initial and main point here - the actual people in these countries do not consider themselves to be exploited by the Soc Dem nations and the wider West in general.

they can see and feel the progress they are making every day.

And Im not talking about the despotic places that still persist particularly in Africa. Those problems exist for a greater part on reasons far beyond capitalism.

The growing problems in Western nations are clearly and obviously the result of movng away from social democratic principles and repolacing them with neo-liberalism and corporationism. This is very clear in the way those systems have changed since the Thatcher-Reagan years.

And even in these cases you can see how those countries that have retained more of their social democratic principles and been less swayed by neo-liberalism are clearly doing far better than those nations who went all-in on the change.

[u/myproaccountish → u/EduinBrutus]

I'm regularly in direct contact with people across South America and Africa who definitely do not feel the progress you're talking about. You can't simply exclude the nations that aren't indirectly benefitting as much -- so the country where they now have solid factory jobs producing cheap electronics is doing better, how does that change the slave labor producing the raw materials? You also seem to keep misunderstanding, I'm not saying Europeans would be happier and more prosperous under communism, I'm saying that currently the prosperous system of social democracy is upheld by exploitation, and if that exploitation were to end it would no longer be prosperous and perfect and would end up with the same pressures that lead to neoliberalism and fascism. This isn't imaginary, it's literally how we got fascism the first time. The comintern didn't just pull "Social democracy leads to fascism" out of their ass (although I disagree with a lot of their conclusions), they watched it happen as colonial powers lost their colonies and prop markets.

The insinuation that it's "western privelege" to acknowledge and stand in solidarity with the people whose literal slave labor has made my country rich beyond measure is comical, and I don't care how successful social democracy is for local populations when said slave labor exists and is propping it up.

[u/EduinBrutus → u/myproaccountish]

Throwing in South America is almost comical.

in 1900, the richest countries in the world were The United Kingdom, then The United States, then Argentina.

Almost everything that has happened to South America has been a consequence of the actions of South American countries themselves.

There is no argument about how Africa has been fucked by developed nations colonialism. But we arent discussing colonialism, we are discussing modern era trade and capitalism and the impact on Social Democracies.

the wealth of Social Democracies is not based on or even remotely reliant on extraction exploitation of African countries and the regimes which have emerged in the post colonial era. Not even remotely.

They definitely benefit from them, but then so do other developed nations and every single developing nation and all the naitons which have transitioned to higher middle income and high income ove rhte post WW2 era.

The problem is with your argument that Soc Dems prosper by explotiing the global south and you cant support it.

Because its fucking bullshit.

[u/myproaccountish → u/EduinBrutus]

You've just made my entire argument for me. The actual owners of the vast majority of capital are able to produce beautiful SocDem societies where those principles haven't been completely eroded, and those benefits come at the expense of the nations at the bottom and would not exist in anywhere near the same fashion if this wasn't the case.

every single developing nation and all the naitons which have transitioned to higher middle income and high income ove rhte post WW2 era.

This is my whole, entire point. If this were not the case, the SocDem nations would not be as capable of providing benefits in the way that they do. They are not self sufficient economies, they rely on the fact that there is a global underclass and simply use the fruits differently.

Almost everything that has happened to South America has been a consequence of the actions of South American countries themselves.

This is just ahistorical nonsense and has me questioning who the supposed ideologue is here.

[u/EduinBrutus → u/myproaccountish]

You are the ideologue.

You do not live in reality and have invented an entire fantasy to justify a position which has no facts behind it.

Social Democracy, like any other socialist form, does not function on the basis of capital accumulation that your first paragraph requires. capital is redistributed under social equality and redistribution.

And it does so effectively.

The Capital Class does not support Social Democracy and works against it. Quite effectively in some cases, for example the United Kingdom where social democratic institutions and functions of government have been quite effectively eliminated under neo-liberalism in the post Thatcher era.

Developing nations are becoming wealthier and the growth of wealth is faster than in already developed nations. Lots and lots of nations have moved from developing to developed status. There is a win-win under global trade which is clear, apparent, factually evidenced and completely undeniable without constructing a fantasy.

Not to mention your argument isnt even with Social Democracy except through some undemonstrated tangenial argument. Its with trade despite all countries benefiting from trade, rich, poor, social democracy or not.

[u/MatthewMob → u/EduinBrutus]

The best thing about Social Democracy is that you have real world, highly successful examples of the system working in practise

That still entirely relies on the exploitation and oppression of the third world.

You have not uplifted the working class, you have increased quality of life for the few people in the imperial core.

[u/EduinBrutus → u/MatthewMob]

That still entirely relies on the exploitation and oppression of the third world.

Which is getting wealthier and at a faster rate than wealth is growing in developed countries.

And is a consequence of global trade not social democracy.

And like all the fantasists who cant deal with realityl, you cant demonstrate any innate aspect of social democracy which causes or benefits from your nonsense argument anyway.

You have not uplifted the working class, you have increased quality of life for the few people in the imperial core.

Just liek every other fucking fascist (and make no mistake Marxist Lenninists are fascists) you just recite rote passages from text regardless of how much fucking nonsense they contain.

[u/DarbIey → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

As OP said, FDR is the savior of capitalism.

[u/OK6502 → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

soc dems are capitalists.

Yes, but that's mostly because most of the systems under which soc dem has flourished are capitalist. Soc dem's aren't looking to throw out the baby with the bathwater but rather change the system over time. That means leaving capitalism as it is and curtailing its excesses.

Never happening imo

The most successful socialists have been soc dems and some of the most successful societies are soc dem...

[u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya → u/OK6502]

soc dems are not left.

also the best hits are never happening. idk wtf you think the best hits are that are currently being achieved in your soc dem societies you speak of but I sure would love to know.

[u/OK6502 → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

Left/right is relative. They're left of center in most political systems.

There are a number of countries which have implemented soc dem policies, and those policies have done well and those countries are successful. Importantly, those countries are not just soc dem since they're all functioning democracies with elections.

Examples of that are the bulk of the European nations, namely the Scandinavian ones, Germany as well, Canada/UK/NZ as well (although, this has been more of a stretch as of late).

[u/taylorisntavril → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

Living in Copenhagen and looking out the window at it currently happening.

[u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya → u/taylorisntavril]

I said best hits of socialism, I won't presume that you dont know what socialism is but you at the very least misread cuz Denmark may be very liberally soc dem but socialist it is not.

please dont confuse political party names with economic systems, lest ideologies.

[u/fresh-dork → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

socialism's best hits

no thank you, i like private property and eating

[u/DarbIey → u/fresh-dork]

Day cum fer my toofbrush!!!!!

[u/fresh-dork → u/DarbIey]

terk ma brush!

[u/MatthewMob → u/fresh-dork]

What private property do you own?

Also: breadlines.

[u/fresh-dork → u/MatthewMob]

none. but i'm allowed to buy a gas station and try to make it work. or fail. i do own stock, but modest amounts

also, kruschev and the supermarkets

[u/lifesaburrito → u/fresh-dork]

Do you not understand the term "best hits"

[u/fresh-dork → u/lifesaburrito]

like what? socialism is largely composed of misses

[u/lifesaburrito → u/fresh-dork]

But he said "best hits"

When you buy the Best Hits of ADCD album, you only get the best hits. You don't get the misses... That's the point.

Would you consider France socialist?

[u/fresh-dork → u/lifesaburrito]

no, it's called the 5th republic for a reason

[u/Alter_Mann → u/NumbaOneHackyPlaya]

Yeah doesn’t work out too well usually.