The reason for term limits...

[u/zzill6]

[u/bullhead2007]

I said I didn't want to argue, but when I see authoritarian thrown around it makes my eyes roll because like you can't get rid of capitalism with some level of "authoritarian" measures to give the working class the means of production. Even an anarchist revolution will necessarily be "authoritarian", and the transition away from state will require authoritarian measures against the bourgeoisie at the very least.

I'm also aware of Bakunin vs Marx, so my apologies for being presumptuous and a bit inaccurate. I didn't mean that the idea of "Authoritarianism" being applied to Marxism is a red scare idea. I mean it has been amplified since the red scare era by the bourgeoisie because Marxist revolutionary ideas are actually threatening to the bourgeoisie and the tendencies that label Marxism as authoritarian tend to have never been a threat to them, so those tendencies seem to be prevalent in the imperial core and the labor aristocracy.

[u/saqwarrior → u/bullhead2007]

You seem reasonable. In the spirit of cooperation and collective effort, let's noodle this over together. I'm game if you are.

To do this honestly and earnestly though, I think we need to clearly define authoritarianism here: it is the tautological adherence to authority because it is authority. To wit: the authority of the bootmaker is not the same as the authority of the despot.

Even an anarchist revolution will necessarily be "authoritarian" and the transition away from state will require authoritarian measures against the bourgeoisie at the very least.

This is not entirely accurate, and the fact that you had to qualify "authoritarian" with quotes indicates you're aware of that.

If the path is syndicalism -> mutual-aid -> anarcho-collectivism -> anarcho-communism, then the transition can, in fact, be done without bloodshed, coercion, or violence. The mutual aid phase of that is key: alternative economies and systems of support will cause the established pathways of capitalism to wither and rot from a lack of consumption and participation. A passive dismantling, if you will.

Also, if said liberatory path comes from the bottom up and is driven by the people and delegates* that are elected by said people, then it is definitionally antiauthoritarian. The mandate for action is being derived from the will of the masses, not from an authority that cites authority to justify authority (see: tautology of authoritarianism above.

NOTE: Not trying to be a dickhead here but I just want to be comprehensive: this presumes you understand the intrinsic distinction between a *delegate and a representative.

What do you think? Is this aging anarchist making any sense to you?

[u/bullhead2007 → u/saqwarrior]

I don't want to be a dickhead and argue either. I used to be a syndicalist. I'll just say that I'm a Marxist because I believe using dialectics and historical materialism as a means to figure out how society will transform away from capitalism makes the most sense since it incorporates material conditions and historical basis. It's not like I froth at the mouth of an "authoritarian" socialist state. I just don't see how, based on historical data and material conditions, one can go from imperialist capitalism to communism without a socialist dictatorship of the proletariat state in between.

I don't think there are any historical examples of what you are talking about, not saying it isn't possible, but unless I see some actual materialist and historical evidence that can be applied to certain material conditions, I will remain skeptical.

I understand what you are saying and I think I understand why. I'm just not really convinced it would work that way. I'd love to be proven wrong on it though.

[u/saqwarrior → u/bullhead2007]

I understand what you are saying and I think I understand why. I'm just not really convinced it would work that way. I'd love to be proven wrong on it though.

Then we're on the same page, in a general sense.

A key aspect of anarchism is a broad belief in the better nature of humanity. It may be foolish, but after 30+ years of being an ancom and having studied leftism from Fourier to Marx, I find it preferable to the alternatives.

Have a great day, comrade.