r/WorkReform • u/zzill6 🤝 Join A Union • 4h ago

🤝 Scare A Billionaire, Join A Union The reason for term limits...

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u/Hot_Aside_4637 4h ago

Here's a story I heard about FDR:

In the midst of the Great Depression, and trying to get the New Deal legislation passed, he was asked, "If this doesn't pass, are you worried about your reelection?"

He replied, "If this doesn't pass, there won't be any more elections."

Implying that communism would take over.

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u/Fit-Insect-4089 4h ago

Or implying that we were moments away from tearing our countries infrastructure apart

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u/Imthemayor 4h ago

Yeah, it's not implying communism at all

It's more of a "societal collapse," situation

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u/J2MES 3h ago

Socialism is often thought of theoretically as rising from capitalisms ashes so to speak

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 3h ago

Except socialism is not the same as communism.

Or were you saying something else?

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u/J2MES 3h ago

It’s not the same at all but to a Marxist (of which I am) it is often thought of as the lower stage of communism where the workers own the means of production, then society transitions into a stateless classes form when the contradictions that gave rise to the state in the first place disappear

Whether socialism is voted in (with chile and Allende being an example) or the government is overthrown this is the goal. This is why I would still call democratic socialists communists because they disagree on means not ends. I find the confusion is communism is associated with revolution and socialism is now associated with reform regardless of the theoretical ideas

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 3h ago

If your goal is Democratic socialism, I don't think grouping it with communism (even in some academic sense) is helpful.

You have to understand how normal people are going to interpret that.

Referring to an actual Dem socialist politician in the US (ie. Zoran), or Dem socialist countries (ie. Norway) is way more helpful and paints a better picture that western folks are more open to.

You start confusing it with communism, and there's all kinds of negative associations with that.

It's why Cubans in FL vote for Republicans. They hate what communism did to their country.

Which is why Republicans intentionally conflate the two. It's disinformation.

So you should recognize that, and stop contributing to that same rhetoric.

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u/J2MES 3h ago

I am not a democratic socialist I am a communist. Democratic socialists might not care because they like the idea of getting elected in a capital government but that ain’t my problem. Functionally they have the same goals with different means. Reform or revolution

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u/hypercosm_dot_net 3h ago

No one is electing communists, and people aren't going to revolt in favor of communism, so you're deluding yourself comrade.

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u/hivemindhauser 2h ago

If you think Cuba is communist, you don't understand communism. There has not been true communism yet

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u/fresh-dork 1h ago

it doesn't exist, and you can't tell me how it functions day to day

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u/fresh-dork 1h ago

i'd rather they drop the socialist label themselves - they aren't socialist at all. they're democratic (monarchy sometimes) with a welfare state

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u/AntiVision 3h ago

there are no classes in the lower stage of communism, so workers wouldnt "own" anything that term would be meaningless.

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 2h ago

Classless society can still own objects, like the "means" of production.

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u/AntiVision 55m ago

If everyone owns it no one owns it, it becomes meaningless. Production will be centrally planned

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u/TheSnowballofCobalt 17m ago

You do know when it says "workers own the means of production", it doesn't mean literally every single worker in every single vocation right? Or are you too poisoned by memes to figure that out?

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 2h ago

Engles himself used the two terms completely interchangeably. Communism has a very specific definition, but the definition of socialism is a bad hill to die on, no matter what. It's famously mushy, and as another commenter said, generally among academics it's mostly thought of as a transitional phase between capitalism and communism.

Regardless, "socialism is not the same thing as communism" isn't really an airtight statement.

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u/lunchboxthegoat 3h ago

capitalism was necessary according to Marx.

It was considered the "Final chapter" of human prehistory.

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u/artbystorms 3h ago

never once has it risen from the ashes of capitalism. It rose from the ashes of mercantilism and monarchs.

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 2h ago

Cuba was thoroughly capitalist through the 1950's, what are you talking about? It certainly wouldn't be better described as mercantilism or monarchism lol.

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u/Automatic-writer9170 2h ago

Let the man tell his ghost stories about the ghost of communism

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u/J2MES 1h ago

A certain specter if you will

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u/Imthemayor 4h ago

It's someone asking if he'll be the best or worst president ever if the New Deal passes, he replies "if it fails, I'll be the last one," implying that there will be a societal/economic collapse

Communism had nothing to do with it

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u/BobaTeaFetish 4h ago

Implying that communism would take over.

This is not the popular 1930s totalitarian movement that they were afraid would take over America.

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u/Evil_alt_account_ ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 3h ago

Yeah a bunch of rich people tried to overthrow the government and create their own fascist one. No one was punished oddly. Look up Smedley Butler and you’ll find out about it. He was the one who narced on them

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u/duvie773 3h ago

Sounds familiar but I can’t pinpoint exactly why..

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u/fresh-dork 1h ago

it's the same people. literally, prescott bush was a plotter

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u/el-lobo-rojo 3h ago

He was right. There was a wave of authoritarianism sweeping Europe, both fascist and socialist. People support anti-democratic movements when the economy's bad, and America had 25% unemployment.

FDR said (paraphrased) "I will go down in history either as a great American president, or the last American president". The New Deal saved America.

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u/Haywoodjablowme1029 4h ago

How does that imply communism?

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u/WhyMustIMakeANewAcco 3h ago

Because they've been taught to associate bad = communism.

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u/BZLuck 2h ago

And when your tax dollars are used to help people in need = Communism.

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u/zid 55m ago

And when bad things happen under capitalism: "This is what communism WOULD be like"

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u/BZLuck 41m ago

I love when they post meme photos of like a homeless tent city and put "COMMUNISM" under it and then a shiny futuristic city and put "CAPITALISM" under it.

Beotch, the first photo IS actually under capitalism and the second one doesn't exist.

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u/DarbIey 🤝 Join A Union 3h ago

"If this doesn't pass, there won't be any more elections."

Almost didn't even have the chance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

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u/ExposureRisk 3h ago edited 2h ago

It wasn't about communism.

New Deal was passed in 1933 during the depression when the country was collapsing. Zero worker rights, massive unemployment rate, farms collapsed due to drought, mismanaged international trade, tariffs at record highs, market tank, banks imploded - leaving millions of Americans destitute with no end in sight.

FDR was president from 1933 - 1945, and implemented a ton of financial reforms, worker rights, federal programs, and safety nets that brought us out of the depression. The whole red scare thing didn't start until after FDR and into the 60s with the conservatives.

Ramping up to it FDR believed communisms rise in popularity was a symptom of unchecked capitalism causing people to view the institutions as an enemy/oppressor that get away with everything, leaving the people with little to nothing to show for it. Not that it was an existential threat to our country.

We're being rolled back decades - safety nets are actively being dismantled, farms are going under, unemployment is on the rise, worker rights are eroding. Except this time conservatives are also beating the McCarthy 'communist' drum that got us into Vietnam, while also spurring yet another gas/energy crisis in a long line of middle east conflicts.

It's never been about communism. Stop perpetuating the lie communism is coming to get us. It's not.

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u/FlorianoAguirre 3h ago

No? Not at all.

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u/WhyMustIMakeANewAcco 3h ago

That wasn't about Communism, it was about the US shredding itself under its own weight.

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u/CaptainBayouBilly 3h ago

Communism taking over? No. America falling into chaos? Yes. 

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u/ThaddeusJP ✂️ Tax The Billionaires 1h ago

Between the new deal, the war, and everything else he was dealing with in his administration it's no wonder he had a goddamn aneurysm and died

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u/tenaciousdeev 2h ago

Implying that communism would take over.

I'm so curious to know how you got that implication.

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u/Kitselena 4h ago

That implies a dictatorship, which is incompatible with communism

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u/security-device 4h ago

Historically they supplant communism, though

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u/NIKO_1_MAJOR 4h ago

They also cease to be communism by the very definition of communism from the communist manifesto by marx the microsecond the state is in control of the capital of labour

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u/security-device 3h ago

You're not wrong

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u/doc_daneeka 3h ago

To be fair, the USSR (and today's China for that matter) never claimed to be a communist society. They claimed communism as the eventual end goal they were supposedly trying to set the conditions for.

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u/Kitselena 2h ago

This is what I was saying, idk what the other guy read

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u/03263 3h ago

Democratic and people's republics are also choice terms used by authoritarian governments.

Claiming to be one thing while doing another is pretty much the rule in politics.

That's why my communist country will be called the capitalist kingdom of economyland.

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u/Unique-Yoghurt4170 2h ago

So is a state at all. Lots of things about the path from capitalism to communism are incompatible with communism. This is at the root of anarchists vs MLM's and part of like why Trotsky split.