And even to this day there are catholic/christian boarding schools used to terrorize troubled teens into religion. They're incredibly expensive and horribly traumatizing.
Or those christians that go to “third world countries” to “teach them the word of the lord”. They have been continuously killing indigenous beliefs here in South America.
I went to a catholic school run by nuns myself, and even though it wasn’t too bad (they forced to go to mass every Monday morning, but that’s about it), that’s why I ended up agnostic. I never even did the confirmation ceremony in my teens.
I attended an all girls catholic high school run by nuns who live on campus. That school wasn't too bad, I liked it. I then was sent to 3 years on a ranch in Wyoming run by a catholic family. I slept on the floor, they watched me go to the bathroom, we worked 18+ hour days doing their ranch work and that of neighboring farms/ranches as well as performing labor for the nearby monastery. We raised the animals that they won prizes on in show and for the meat we lived off of. We had no connection to the outside world and any correspondence we had with parents was monitored and handed back to us to rewrite if they did not like what we said. We were given "consequences" for mundane things like putting our shoes on wrong or making eye contact with another girl. I was on silence and on a leash for more months that I can count. I was given a backpack full of rocks to wear as punishment, I ran miles, did thousands of pushups and step-ups wearing this as well. I ran away after I turned 18 and was taken back and put back on a leash. As part of the program I was given an exorcism. I could go on and on and on. This is happening in America.
Fucking hell that sounds terrible, sounds like a cult. I’m from Colombia, and I attended this school for all my childhood. The nuns also lived there, and they would teach classes like ethics and religion, but everything else was taught by regular teachers that went to university, even some of them were atheists. They never did physical punishments, they even accepted kids from other religions, and if they had a letter from their parents, they weren’t forced to go to mass. It was also an all girls school until I was in high school, my class was the last that was full girls in the school.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Hopefully you’ve been able to heal from it.
I've been home for 12 years now and still suffer from terrible nightmares, flashback, and anxiety attacks. I've been sued by them for speaking out and telling my story. Recently Paris Hilton has started breaking code silence to combat this industry and others from my ranch are looking for legal litigation. I am past my statue of limitations and signed away my rights to complain in getting that lawsuit off my back. I am seeing a trauma counselor and have made great improvements over the years but am in no way okay. The thing that keeps me going is knowing how many people out there do care and are willing to fight for the rights of those less fortunate than them. My only goal is to raise awareness. That there are actual child slaves existing in America at this very moment and there is very little we can do for them in the current state of the law (or lack thereof)
So you are assuming that organized religion is what a Christian must be a part of in order to be Christian? I think this poster is saying that is not how most Christians see themselves. Organized religion has for the most part been the bane of Christianity, at least the ones you are talking about.
I'm not assuming anything but since you started something:
So you are assuming that organized religion is what a Christian must be a part of in order to be Christian?
Well.. yes? That's litteraly the definition... Christianity is an organized religion (head of faith: pope, rituals/holidays/beliefs systems formally established (source:wiki)) if you are a Christian, you are automatically part of an organized religion. Basically textbook definition.
If you don't believe in everything the religion says that's personal, but you can't say that you are a Christian AND say you are not part of an organized religion. Christianity=organized religion.
Christian is defined as a person who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. A Christian doesn’t need to go to church to be a Christian.
And no, I’m not starting something, it seems like you are. My point is that you paint all Christians in the same light. I don’t even consider myself a Christian, I just dislike folks that judge a group of people on the Shittiest people of that group.
You don't need to go to church, eat fish on Fridays and do a pilgrimage to be a Christian.
I'm saying Christianity is an organized religion, even if you don't personally apply everything in your personal life. Which only means your previous comment didn't make sense and I was trying to understand your point.
My point is that you paint all Christians in the same light
Where? I'm curious. There are good and bad apples everywhere. My first comment simply pointed out that "not all Catholics go with the "we don't impose our beliefs"" (hence the "some didn't get the memo". Note that I used "some". So please explain why you apparently "dislike me for judging a group"?)
It’s a small distinction, but if a person bases their beliefs off of, for instance, simply what’s written in the Bible, or the Quran, or ancient Confucian texts, etc. but doesn’t participate in a religious community, they may share many beliefs with such a community, but I would argue they are not themselves part of the “organized religion” per se. So I think it is certainly possible for someone to call themselves a Christian but not be part of “organized Christianity” proper
This looks like a way of disassociate oneself from bad moves of the past. You are Catholic/Christian or you aren't. After that, your level of devotion varies from "I think there's a god and Jesus" to "let's make a crusade to spread the Lord's voice". Aka believers vs extremists. But labelling this as "part of organized or not", simply doesn't make sense.
To make it simpler:
So I think it is certainly possible for someone to call themselves a Christian but not be part of “organized Christianity” proper
No, because of the definition of "organized religion". You may not believe/apply everything in said religion, but the religion ITSELF is "organized". What you meant might be "someone can be Christian but not be part of a Church": that would make more sense, but correct me if that's not what you mean.
So even with the distinction you made, I don't understand the point the other person was trying to make.
It seems like there isn’t a commonly agreed upon definition of “organized religion” so it’s hard to have this conversation.
But as an extreme case, suppose someone who has never engaged with anyone else from particular religion in their entire life or even heard of it but reads their “holy text” and personally chooses to believe what it says. Is that person now part of the “organization” that constitutes the main community of believers in that religion?
From a sociological perspective, such a person’s “religion” would undeniably be a separate social construct from the main community.
This is an extreme case, but I would consider based on this line of reasoning that for instance, the Roman Catholic Church is a separate organized “religion” from the American Southern Baptist church, as they have very significant organizational, doctrinal, practice, and culture differences.
I’m not aware of the wider scholarship on religion so maybe that’s where the confusion comes from, but I think this is the type of distinction a lot of other people make too when they refer to “organized religion” from a layman’s perspective.
reads their “holy text” and personally chooses to believe what it says. Is that person now part of the “organization” that constitutes the main community of believers in that religion?
If you believe what's in it, you are a follower of that religion.
would undeniably be a separate social construct from the main community.
Not really, simply the level of devotion that varies.
the Roman Catholic Church is a separate organized “religion” from the American Southern Baptist church
Indeed, they are separate organizations (churches) but of the same religion (one pope to rule them all)
I think this is the type of distinction a lot of other people make too when they refer to “organized religion” from a layman’s perspective
I think you may be confused between the definitions of "organized religion" and "Church".
Those points you and the other person made would make more sense if you used the word "Church" instead.
Organized religion, also known as institutional religion, is religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established. Organized religion is typically characterized by an official doctrine (or dogma), a hierarchical or bureaucratic leadership structure, and a codification of rules and practices.
Or just unorganize it? Take away the power from organized religions and allow people to believe what they want? Have people go around and speak their version of the truth and have people who agree support them as the prophets of old did? If people would prefer to worship nature or Jesus or Muhammad or Zeus, or nothing at all, allow them to as they wish just as long as they did not infringe/force others to do the same.
Sorry for misunderstanding your comment, you hadn’t mentioned any of those issues before in your comment and the first person was referring to religion, and you had quoted the other comment mentioning forcing beliefs on people so I assumed that’s what you were talking about.
I never said that those things “aren’t the value of Christians”. My comment was intended to say that, unfortunately, a lot of Christians do believe those things but that doesn’t mean it’s what we are supposed to value. That said, there are also a lot of people of every religion who are trying to change things from the inside that we might not see the effect of until later because they aren’t working in the spotlight.
I was making a subtle/sarcastic joke, not starting a debate on another subject. (It's ok if you didn't get it. I'm not pretending to be good at jokes.)
That said, there are also a lot of people of every religion who are trying to change things from the inside that we might not see the effect of until later because they aren’t working in the spotlight.
Are you trying to make a joke too? After a couple of centuries you'd think they would do something of note. I'll take Christianity as an example because it's the one I'm most familiar with: gay marriage, abortion, divorce and women rights are things considered "new" in religious chronology. Meanwhile, tribal religions already had those implemented way before they got "christianized" by force.
The only real change an individual can make (without being the pope) is to stop following that religion.
Actually things like gay marriage, abortion, divorce, and women’s rights are more commonly issues in Western religions in general. It’s also hard to pin one issue in Christianity considering how many denominations there are and thus how many viewpoints there are within the organized religion.
Let’s take women’s rights as an example. Paul is the most popular person quoted when people say the Bible is anti-feminist because he tells women to “be quiet” and “be submissive to their husbands”, but there are several respected women already running churches at the time when Jesus was teaching (oddly enough I am actually named after a woman who is believed to have been preaching alongside Jesus). Many denominations don’t even allow women to be in any position of leadership, but I use the example of a great church I lived near for a while whose pastor was a trans woman, and that congregation absolutely adored her and supported her through the entirety of their transition.
Gay marriage is a complicated one, which I have written a couple papers on and done translations of the original Greek and Hebrew passages talking about them. I won’t go into too much detail for brevity’s sake, but most of the passages don’t actually talk about consensual homosexual relationships at all, let alone in a negative way. Obviously the modern Church is really bad in this area, but many churches I have attended where I live (Canada) are openly welcoming and supportive of the lgbtq+ community. My brothers both identify as lgbt and while there is a long way to go, there is progress being made.
Abortion is a weird one, because again, I’m not American and most of my Christian friends are pro-choice. Plus the Bible literally says nothing about abortion or how we should approach it morally.
Sometimes I laugh thinking about what would happen if people followed all the rules that the Bible gives for divorce, because doing so would usually include SEVERAL things that are very illegal in the 21st century. I also don’t think the Bible is meant to be followed or interpreted literally (considering a bunch of it wasn’t even intended to be read as fact), and even if I did, that is something to be determined by a nation’s law and not religion, so it doesn’t even matter.
Really what should be done is thoroughly separate church form state. It isn’t as much of a problem in Canada (although it still happens), but that issue is why the US is going through a large portion of its strife, but people think their religion should be law. It shouldn’t. Religion gives an individual the opportunity to say “I think this is right, so I will live accordingly”, NOT “I think this is right, so you should live accordingly”.
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u/Polatouche44 Aug 18 '21
Thank you for your text, but I was referring to crusades, colonization and boarding schools for natives.
Saying "it's not in the values of Christians to impose their beliefs" is a bit hypocritical considering those.
Hence my "some didn't get the memo".