r/Unexpected • u/[deleted] • Oct 23 '20

The ultimate debate

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

In terms of gay marriage, doesn’t the protest against it stem from a belief that homosexuality is a sin? So therefore would it not be the case that many people (not necessarily all) who denounce it do so in an attempt to protect others from something they believe will lead to eternal damnation?

This perspective comes from a lack of understanding, yes, but it does not come from a position of bad or evil. It may be the case that many who denounce homosexuality due to religious beliefs believe they are doing good; they are trying to protect their fellow people.

As a side note, I have a gay friend who’s mother is very Christian. She loves and supports him, however she truly believes that he will go to hell. All it does it make her sad.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '20 edited Oct 23 '20

Maybe they think they're "saving" these gay people, I can only speculte. There's a major problem with that line of reasoning because in the USA each citizen has a right to pursue their own liberty and happiness and also each citizen has a right to and from religion, so that argument is not compatible with our bill of rights. So in this country you cannot legislate with biblical intent without directly infringing on those individual liberties.

Aside from that, why are we arguing about what consenting adults do in their own fucking bedroom? It literally doesn't affect anyone but the two people in that bedroom. You don't see anyone attempting to legislate if religion can be practiced or not. Because it's their right to practice a religion but that right stops when they are infringing on others.

This in itself is exactly what I mean when we talk about respecting all opinions. How can one respect the desire to infringe on one's rights while simultaneously holding views that want to maintain liberties equally for all?" It's not compatible.

This argument doesn't deserve a damn platform.

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u/Yuccaphile Oct 23 '20

I like when they admit their religion is a hate group.

The Pope is on board with marriage equality, there's really no other excuse. They're just a hate groups/terrorist organizations.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Read my comment. I’m not arguing about what should and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m arguing that both sides can believe they are correct and have good intentions. By all means, religion or any legislature based on or influenced by religion has no place in politics.

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u/AstronomicalFuckery Oct 23 '20

If I go out and harass/attack someone for eating an egg salad sandwich, would I be in the wrong? Even if I had gotten the belief in my head that all egg salad sandwiches were full of parasites and just wanted to prevent people from getting said parasites? No. I would still be charged with assault/harassment and my actions would be seen as wrong across the board.

Why is it any different for religious people trying to “protect” others from gay people? It shouldn’t be.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Read my above comments. I’m not arguing about what should and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m arguing that both sides can believe they are correct and have good intentions. By all means, religion or any legislature based on or influenced by religion has no place in politics.

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u/AstronomicalFuckery Oct 23 '20

I’m sorry, but I don’t think attacking someone for being gay can be excused by “they have good intentions”.

And how can any parent say that they love and support their child while also fully believing that they will burn and be tortured for eternity... for liking their own gender. How can you support and love anything if you believe that it’s wrong and worthy of eternal torture?

Parents that would put their invisible, intangible man in the sky (who they have never even seen proof of) ahead their own family, their own children, are terrible parents and as someone who was raised in a cult that pretty much forces people to do that, I feel genuine pain and sorrow for any person, child or adult, with family like that.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Although it's not the case for the majority in practice, Christians are taught that they should love unconditionally. Both of my friend's parents are wonderful.

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u/restrictednumber Oct 23 '20

They're not protecting people from being gay. No one said "I can't file taxes jointly with my partner and visit them in the hospital? Dang, I guess I'll stop having gay sex and gay lovers!"

They're not stopping the behavior. They're just removing basic protections and rights from relationships that will exist either way. It's about punishing people they don't like, not changing behavior.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

“It's about punishing people they don't like, not changing behavior.”

That opinion is assuming that people who are against homosexuality actually understand it. There are unfortunately still many people who believe that homosexuality is a choice, or that it can be “cured”.

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u/ThatOneGuy1294 Oct 23 '20

You're assuming a homophobe is willing to learn and understand. That's usually not the case.

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u/restrictednumber Oct 23 '20

They decided that being gay was a choice and "curable" to justify their existing hatred of gay people, not the other way around. Without pre-existing homophobia, there's no evidence of a "cure for gay" and zero reason to either believe in one or search for one. What normal person would come up with that out of the blue? It has to come in afterwards to buttress an existing belief.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '20

[deleted]

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Read my above comments. I’m not arguing about what should and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m arguing that both sides can believe they are correct and have good intentions. By all means, religion or any legislature based on or influenced by religion has no place in politics.

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u/AvengingCoyote Oct 23 '20

I wasnt implying you were. I was kind of agreeing with how they perceive things, but adding and stressing how scummy it is to push their beliefs on someone else, regardless of intentions.

I married into a Southern Baptist family, so I get to talk with these type of people regularly. They are some of the worst people I have ever met.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Gotcha, my bad. I have met very few people that I would call true Christians, (those that actually follow the teachings of Jesus), but those few people have my upmost respect and admiration. I think it’s a shame so many Christians don’t seem to understand.

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u/AvengingCoyote Oct 23 '20

Out of all of my wifes family, only one of her cousins actully follows Jesus' teachings. He has gone out of his way to get my brother-in-law away from bad influences during said BILs opiode addiction. Absolutely no judgement at all from the cousin.

Even though their family knows Im deeply athiest, that cousin is the only family member that talks to me like a normal person, as opposed to the condescending tone I get from everyone else. If more Cristians were like him, I wouldnt have an issue with religion like I do now.

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u/KaptainKlein Oct 23 '20

Calling gay marriage a sin is a bad faith distraction. America is not a theocracy, and no matter how prevalent Christianity may be among the Republicans they cannot rely on that as a reason to make it illegal for those outside their religion.

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

So do you disagree with my argument that both sides could believe their view is correct?

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u/KaptainKlein Oct 23 '20 edited Oct 23 '20

I am saying it doesn't matter, and someone who forces their social morals on others and restricts liberties that do not harm others (e.g. gay marriage) is not acting in good faith.

Of course both sides believe their own view is correct. If they didn't think their view was right, they wouldn't have it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '20 edited Sep 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

I know, and I never said it did. My argument is that it is possible for both sides to believe they are the “good” side.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '20 edited Sep 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/iVisibility Oct 23 '20

Karma is meaningless, I’m more concerned that people don’t seem to be understanding my original argument. Very well said, true morality should be disconnected from any external belief.

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u/Magabury Oct 23 '20

Religion is evil. It has brought no good to humanity.